0000107: Abrams side armor on turret

Notes
(0000256) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 19:21	Do not be angry - everybody is making a mistakes, thats what made us human

(0000257) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 19:24	For question that may appear - this is making even without ricochet - under angle of 90.

(0000258) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 19:41	"Hitting in ammo storage should at least hurt some crewman and block the turret (if ammo storage doors was closed while explosion)" It is not modelled yet. And we do not know yet how to implement Abrams crew safety and survivability features like isolated ammunition compartments. Tough our goal in final version is to make it not blowing up, in most worst cases scenarios disabled, just like in real life. "but not allways possible (tank can be hidden)" So? Like in real life. "I love realism, but for naming realism proper definition if it is needed and i'm giving source, then you are telling me i dont know something, i'm asing real russian soldiers, and you block me. Realism is not how YOU se that, but this is how it works for ALL in REAL." As I said, I spent days, weeks even, digging through documents and my own sources, creating based on them, Abrams armor model, and then calculating protection. Do you know how difficult work it is? I don't care what real Russian soldiers say about Abrams, as none of them seen the damn thing in real life, or probably read anything worth about it besides some idiotic propaganda BS that "Abrams is inferior to our superior tanks and weapons". If you will sit inside Abrams during tests you will notice that side hits to the turret damage it and block it or the gun receives damage. Same for hull. From the front Abrams (in variants present in the mod at the moment, which are one of the most modern ones) is preatty much invurnable to any AT weapon or ammunition, besides some weak spots.

(0000259) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 19:47 edited on: 2015-01-04 19:50	""but not allways possible (tank can be hidden)" So? Like in real life." Yes, but in real shooting to side armor will have some after effects. "If you will sit inside Abrams during tests you will notice that side hits to the turret damage it and block it or the gun receives damage." Not really. which version are you using with your mod? Dev or 1.36? Sometimes gun receive damage, but it depent of angle (as it should be), but turret never blocked for me

(0000260) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 19:49	"Yes, but in real shooting to side armor will have some after effects." And it have, you can kill crew if it is directly on the projectile path. "Not really. whcich version are you usinf with your mod? Dev or 1.36? " Yes really, and Dev version I have is the same as release version, we tested it extensively, it works as intended, I have no problems with destroying Abrams or badly damaging it.

(0000261) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 19:51	Can you spend me a while and not closing this ticket? I will make tests for you and show you final effect

(0000262) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 19:54 edited on: 2015-01-04 20:17	Sure, but then again, I tell you everything is fine. Just shoot the damn thing in to hull sides and it will blew up after few hits. Or to put this another way around. Our desired goal is to completely eliminating explosion from Abrams as this is unrealistic. (Other tanks also will have changed this to something more realistic at some point, even T tanks don't allways explode). In worst cases scenarios, vehicle will be disabled (unable to fight) or will start with small fire and will be slowly consumed by it (this is the very, very worst scenario). Eventually we might add ammo cook offs, but in case of Abrams they won't doo much besides eliminating it's main gun ammo storage, turret can still be traversed in such situation, and if hull is not damaged, in reality vehicle can even move by it's own power. The after armor effects is different kind of problem, not connected to vehicles or their armor and damage models, but with ammunition, we discussed this, there are some sollutions avaiable, we will see how it ends, as complete implementation of the whole system is scheduled at best for 0.4 version. So you just see problems where there are no problems.

(0000264) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 20:10 edited on: 2015-01-04 20:14	Now i see. I know hull damage is good - no doubt. I just present you how this look like on video: http://youtu.be/yCZejZhfSKw [^] And tell you that things you want to do is very hard (as you know already) Side armor on abrams turret is like... like its not exist and round is flying through. I woould chceck this in config if you agree, and find it, modify that, then tell you if this work. Im really impressed how you are gonna mod damage system on vehicles, BIS should help you with it, you are making big step in moding feature

(0000265) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 20:14 edited on: 2015-01-04 20:15	You can't change Abrams damage and armor in config because it is hardcoded to the model, not it's config. Or in other words, armor is modeled physically on vehicles model, and uses BIS physical ammo penetration system, not the hitpoints system. And behavior of your copy of MOD is strange, we tested it extensively without problems. Be sure you test it with vanilla content only, also check in game options if extended armor is enabled or disabled, try with both. This problem was present during some tests in MP, but was solved long time ago. Try to redownload mod again if necessary. It is really strange as I never had this problem.

(0000266) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 20:17	Well, il try to enable extented armor. I am not using any other mod that can affect on armor (only half_sway for small weapons, and VTS_weaponresting) But it was on 0.3.0 without and with mods. I'll make new tests, please do not close the ticket. I know this is strange, for me its too strange, solving the problem will be simplier than we think, but i need to get it.

(0000267) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 20:19	Ah you can't get to it, simply because as I said, looking inside configs won't do anything, there is nothing armor model related there. Wait few days, I will make extensive tests and discuss eventuall negative results with Reyhard.

(0000268) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 20:28 edited on: 2015-01-04 20:30	Yes! I've got something. As you sayed its ammunition problem. I spawned T-100 and he can damage abrams turret without problem, all of RHS mod tanks, and weapons cant do anything about its turret. To damage abrams and force crew to evacuate i used one APFSDS round from T-100, we are close to resolve the bug! ;) T-100 rounds work with extented armor enabled and disabled, RHS T-XX rounds not work with both options :(

(0000269) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 20:33 edited on: 2015-01-04 20:34	No we are not, and do not expect we will use your sollution, as you completely don't understand the whole system. The vanilla content use hitpoints based system which is flawed as vanilla content is not compataibile with RHS. RHS system is based on physical interaction between modeled armor and projectile, and turret or hull or engine are damaged only, if armor is breached and a hitpoint of this components is hit by projectile. Which means that there are hardcoded armor models in to vehicle model with proper KE and CE protection, and there are rounds which have their proper penetration values in config which are not based on hitpoints system. Which means that vanilla content ammunition, does not even need to pierce through armor to damage vehicle.

(0000270) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 20:37	Damm... I can add only think what can be observed on video - projectile is not penetrating armor in that case. There are specific efect with lot of sparks if round penetrate armor, and there is not. I dont know what can i say more to help you...

(0000271) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 20:42	Sparks are allways present when armor is hit by armor piercing projectile, I know that because I was advising ZGuba about this stuff when he was working on ArmA3. I will do my own tests and ask other team members, but I suspect you have something broken, as you are the only one having these problems so far.

(0000273) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 20:45 edited on: 2015-01-04 20:46	Yes i was having same feels, so i reainstalled arma, your mod have re-downloaded 2 times, and still nothing. I'm not sure but this was present even with T-72 turret (side and back armor) - i've been hitet twice in rear part of turret with M136 on 0.3.0 version with no efect. May this depend of language in game, some setting on steam or in game?

(0000274) MistyRonin (administrator) 2015-01-04 20:46 edited on: 2015-01-04 20:46	We'll do something. Even if this issue has already been answered a lot of times before, I'll keep this issue open exceptionally, so you can rant whatever you want. BUT if you open one more issue talking about Abrams, I'll ban you from the tracker. And being sincere, I would prefer to avoid that :)

(0000275) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 20:47	OK Misty Ronin, remember i want to resolve this issue same as you

(0000277) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 21:03	Ok, MistyRonin tested his downloaded version, and there are no problems, vehicle behaves as intended. I will test if possible my own version tonight to be sure. But it seems it is a problem on your end... do you have latest ArmA3 version? 1.36?

(0000278) MistyRonin (administrator) 2015-01-04 21:13 edited on: 2015-01-04 21:28	As an update, I found a few spots where the armor deflects, we'll look into that. Image of the tests: http://i.imgur.com/zxm1Wim.jpg [^]

(0000279) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-04 22:11 edited on: 2015-01-04 22:20	After hour of tests.... got some resoult http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p746/vlad_8011/questions/Abramspenetrationdiagram_zps1183a5aa.png [^] I also looked inside ammo files (didnt edited it, extracted somwhere else) and ammo values look ok (RHA, hit values), there is nothing missing. There must be some with value of turret armor. I was shooting a little from above and all rounds was passing through turret and hiting ground beyond tank. It look like armor value on green sector (from picture) doesnt exist or its somehow too big. I also was shooting to T-72 turret - damage system is ok, but when turret is on red status - its still working (can rotate), gun is down. This is good. With abrams - i placed all versions of them, and start firing in same place with T-80, T-72 and abrams a1 and a2 with heat, sabot, atgm - with no efect.... I dont know what test u can make more. If you got some idea, write, i'll make more tests tomorrow.

(0000282) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-04 23:45	We are investigating. Reyhard checked armor model for hull front yesterday and it seemed to be ok, there is something fishy going on.

(0000291) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-05 11:37 edited on: 2015-01-05 11:37	Yep,front turret armor and overall hull armor are ok, and works great. Only this sides and back....

(0000293) Tachi (reporter) 2015-01-05 12:11	Maybe it's because RHS penetration system counts only direct hits, and those hits that a fired at some angle are not counting at all?

(0000294) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-05 12:22 edited on: 2015-01-05 13:09	As i writed before, side of abrams (only) turret is untouchable - i can make a direct hit, ricochete and nothing. Rest of armor values works fine. EDIT: I was making next test, driving around abrams and hiting only side and rear part of turret from deferent angles and whole vehicle was intact - i get out t-72 and geted in Abrams and saw that vehicle was in "green" condition like it wasnt hited at all. i was mad and started to drive this tank (abrams) and found one more little bug connected with "turn out" option . If you are on drivers seat and turn out, then turn in your camera will be in the hull but no using periscope, if you go to gunners seat you will not see sight, just hull from inside model. Fix is ease - pres 3rd person view, then 1st person view. This is just by the way, but no problem for me. I rarely use abrams and more rearely turn out option on it beacuse of great sights. Today i launched game on developer version - same issue with that armor, then 1.36 - still no change. You have sayed this was on some MP tests - maybe its depend of region ? Can i Ask You ALL PLAYERS to check that issue on your mods in free time? I dont know what is going on here and i have no good experience with original games - i'm using first original windows, and original arma 3, i never had so much bugs/errors/crashes on copy of win XP and copy of arma I. So i bough original w/ queens gambit - problems have started. Then i played copy arma II - fade protection was making game unplayable. now Arma 3 - great (the best mod) and only i have a problem.... how is this possible, does god hate me?

(0000296) Damian (reporter) 2015-01-05 13:41 edited on: 2015-01-05 13:42	Reyhard found problems and we believe they were all fixed, these were small bugs yet significant enough, that slipped through our control, today I will make tests personally of fixed vehicles to check if everything is ok, if so then next release version will have them fixed.

(0000298) vlad_8011 (viewer) 2015-01-05 14:24	Thanks Damian, i really like your help.

(0000304) MistyRonin (administrator) 2015-01-05 16:21 edited on: 2015-01-05 16:22	Solved in the next patch ( all Thanks to Reyhard ).

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2015-01-04 19:19	vlad_8011	New Issue
2015-01-04 19:21	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000256
2015-01-04 19:24	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000257
2015-01-04 19:41	Damian	Note Added: 0000258
2015-01-04 19:47	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000259
2015-01-04 19:48	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000259	View Revisions
2015-01-04 19:49	Damian	Note Added: 0000260
2015-01-04 19:50	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000259	View Revisions
2015-01-04 19:51	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000261
2015-01-04 19:54	Damian	Note Added: 0000262
2015-01-04 20:00	Damian	Note Added: 0000263
2015-01-04 20:02	Damian	Note Deleted: 0000263
2015-01-04 20:02	Damian	Note Edited: 0000262	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:03	Damian	Note Edited: 0000262	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:10	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000264
2015-01-04 20:14	Damian	Note Added: 0000265
2015-01-04 20:14	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000264	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:15	Damian	Note Edited: 0000265	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:17	Damian	Note Edited: 0000262	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:17	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000266
2015-01-04 20:19	Damian	Note Added: 0000267
2015-01-04 20:28	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000268
2015-01-04 20:28	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000268	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:29	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000268	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:30	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000268	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:33	Damian	Note Added: 0000269
2015-01-04 20:34	Damian	Note Edited: 0000269	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:37	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000270
2015-01-04 20:42	Damian	Note Added: 0000271
2015-01-04 20:45	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000273
2015-01-04 20:46	MistyRonin	Note Added: 0000274
2015-01-04 20:46	MistyRonin	Note Edited: 0000274	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:46	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000273	View Revisions
2015-01-04 20:47	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000275
2015-01-04 20:47	MistyRonin	Priority	normal => none
2015-01-04 20:47	MistyRonin	Severity	major => trivial
2015-01-04 20:47	MistyRonin	Reproducibility	always => unable to reproduce
2015-01-04 20:47	MistyRonin	Status	new => feedback
2015-01-04 20:52	MistyRonin	Assigned To	=> MistyRonin
2015-01-04 20:52	MistyRonin	Status	feedback => assigned
2015-01-04 20:53	MistyRonin	Status	assigned => feedback
2015-01-04 21:03	Damian	Note Added: 0000277
2015-01-04 21:13	MistyRonin	Note Added: 0000278
2015-01-04 21:13	MistyRonin	Note Edited: 0000278	View Revisions
2015-01-04 21:14	MistyRonin	Status	feedback => acknowledged
2015-01-04 21:28	MistyRonin	Note Edited: 0000278	View Revisions
2015-01-04 22:11	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000279
2015-01-04 22:18	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000279	View Revisions
2015-01-04 22:19	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000279	View Revisions
2015-01-04 22:20	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000279	View Revisions
2015-01-04 23:45	Damian	Note Added: 0000282
2015-01-05 11:37	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000291
2015-01-05 11:37	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000291	View Revisions
2015-01-05 12:11	Tachi	Note Added: 0000293
2015-01-05 12:22	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000294
2015-01-05 12:50	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000294	View Revisions
2015-01-05 12:57	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000294	View Revisions
2015-01-05 13:09	vlad_8011	Note Edited: 0000294	View Revisions
2015-01-05 13:41	Damian	Note Added: 0000296
2015-01-05 13:42	Damian	Note Edited: 0000296	View Revisions
2015-01-05 14:24	vlad_8011	Note Added: 0000298
2015-01-05 15:08	MistyRonin	Status	acknowledged => confirmed
2015-01-05 16:21	MistyRonin	Note Added: 0000304
2015-01-05 16:21	MistyRonin	Status	confirmed => resolved
2015-01-05 16:21	MistyRonin	Resolution	open => fixed
2015-01-05 16:22	MistyRonin	Note Edited: 0000304	View Revisions
2015-01-21 12:45	MistyRonin	Product Version	=> 0.3.5
2015-01-21 12:45	MistyRonin	Fixed in Version	=> 0.3.5.1
2015-01-21 12:45	MistyRonin	Target Version	=> 0.3.5.1

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