RHS Feedback - USAF
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000107USAF[All Projects] Generalpublic2015-01-04 19:192015-01-21 12:45
Reportervlad_8011 
Assigned ToMistyRonin 
PrioritynoneSeveritytrivialReproducibilityunable to reproduce
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformPCOSWindows 7OS Version64 bit
Product Version0.3.5 
Target Version0.3.5.1Fixed in Version0.3.5.1 
Is it a wish/request?
RHS version
Arma 3 version
Did you used any other mod when the error occurred?
Which mods?
Summary0000107: Abrams side armor on turret
DescriptionMan you cant read. I writed, i want to know BEFORE OPENING CONFIG FILES so i DIDNT OPENED YET ANYTHING IN NEW VERSION (0.3.5), SO ALL BUGS WHAT I FOUND ISNT MADE BY ME - UNDERSTAND? I dont know why you disrespect me so much but nobody normal is doing so. I've made video specially for you with vannila game + RHS Escalation mod to show you unnormal armor of abrams turret. If im fanboy for you - ok, but who are you then?

 "I made personally theoretical model and calculations based on real life data for this tank"
Hitting in ammo storage should at least hurt some crewman and block the turret (if ammo storage doors was closed while explosion)
"Side hull armor is easier to penetrate " but not allways possible (tank can be hidden)
" if you don't like realism then don't play" I love realism, but for naming realism proper definition if it is needed and i'm giving source, then you are telling me i dont know something, i'm asing real russian soldiers, and you block me. Realism is not how YOU se that, but this is how it works for ALL in REAL.
Steps To ReproduceAs before
VIDEO :
http://youtu.be/YRG3svmE2S4 [^]
I'm sure this isnt realistic
Additional InformationYouve got big potential but losing it bacuse ignorantion aruments
TagsNo tags attached.
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Attached Files
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2015-01-04 19:19vlad_8011New Issue
2015-01-04 19:21vlad_8011Note Added: 0000256
2015-01-04 19:24vlad_8011Note Added: 0000257
2015-01-04 19:41DamianNote Added: 0000258
2015-01-04 19:47vlad_8011Note Added: 0000259
2015-01-04 19:48vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000259bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=259#r109
2015-01-04 19:49DamianNote Added: 0000260
2015-01-04 19:50vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000259bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=259#r110
2015-01-04 19:51vlad_8011Note Added: 0000261
2015-01-04 19:54DamianNote Added: 0000262
2015-01-04 20:00DamianNote Added: 0000263
2015-01-04 20:02DamianNote Deleted: 0000263
2015-01-04 20:02DamianNote Edited: 0000262bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=262#r112
2015-01-04 20:03DamianNote Edited: 0000262bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=262#r113
2015-01-04 20:10vlad_8011Note Added: 0000264
2015-01-04 20:14DamianNote Added: 0000265
2015-01-04 20:14vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000264bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=264#r115
2015-01-04 20:15DamianNote Edited: 0000265bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=265#r117
2015-01-04 20:17DamianNote Edited: 0000262bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=262#r118
2015-01-04 20:17vlad_8011Note Added: 0000266
2015-01-04 20:19DamianNote Added: 0000267
2015-01-04 20:28vlad_8011Note Added: 0000268
2015-01-04 20:28vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000268bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=268#r120
2015-01-04 20:29vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000268bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=268#r121
2015-01-04 20:30vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000268bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=268#r122
2015-01-04 20:33DamianNote Added: 0000269
2015-01-04 20:34DamianNote Edited: 0000269bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=269#r124
2015-01-04 20:37vlad_8011Note Added: 0000270
2015-01-04 20:42DamianNote Added: 0000271
2015-01-04 20:45vlad_8011Note Added: 0000273
2015-01-04 20:46MistyRoninNote Added: 0000274
2015-01-04 20:46MistyRoninNote Edited: 0000274bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=274#r126
2015-01-04 20:46vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000273bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=273#r128
2015-01-04 20:47vlad_8011Note Added: 0000275
2015-01-04 20:47MistyRoninPrioritynormal => none
2015-01-04 20:47MistyRoninSeveritymajor => trivial
2015-01-04 20:47MistyRoninReproducibilityalways => unable to reproduce
2015-01-04 20:47MistyRoninStatusnew => feedback
2015-01-04 20:52MistyRoninAssigned To => MistyRonin
2015-01-04 20:52MistyRoninStatusfeedback => assigned
2015-01-04 20:53MistyRoninStatusassigned => feedback
2015-01-04 21:03DamianNote Added: 0000277
2015-01-04 21:13MistyRoninNote Added: 0000278
2015-01-04 21:13MistyRoninNote Edited: 0000278bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=278#r130
2015-01-04 21:14MistyRoninStatusfeedback => acknowledged
2015-01-04 21:28MistyRoninNote Edited: 0000278bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=278#r131
2015-01-04 22:11vlad_8011Note Added: 0000279
2015-01-04 22:18vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000279bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=279#r133
2015-01-04 22:19vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000279bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=279#r134
2015-01-04 22:20vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000279bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=279#r135
2015-01-04 23:45DamianNote Added: 0000282
2015-01-05 11:37vlad_8011Note Added: 0000291
2015-01-05 11:37vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000291bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=291#r139
2015-01-05 12:11TachiNote Added: 0000293
2015-01-05 12:22vlad_8011Note Added: 0000294
2015-01-05 12:50vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000294bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=294#r144
2015-01-05 12:57vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000294bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=294#r145
2015-01-05 13:09vlad_8011Note Edited: 0000294bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=294#r146
2015-01-05 13:41DamianNote Added: 0000296
2015-01-05 13:42DamianNote Edited: 0000296bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=296#r148
2015-01-05 14:24vlad_8011Note Added: 0000298
2015-01-05 15:08MistyRoninStatusacknowledged => confirmed
2015-01-05 16:21MistyRoninNote Added: 0000304
2015-01-05 16:21MistyRoninStatusconfirmed => resolved
2015-01-05 16:21MistyRoninResolutionopen => fixed
2015-01-05 16:22MistyRoninNote Edited: 0000304bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=304#r156
2015-01-21 12:45MistyRoninProduct Version => 0.3.5
2015-01-21 12:45MistyRoninFixed in Version => 0.3.5.1
2015-01-21 12:45MistyRoninTarget Version => 0.3.5.1

Notes
(0000256)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 19:21   
Do not be angry - everybody is making a mistakes, thats what made us human
(0000257)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 19:24   
For question that may appear - this is making even without ricochet - under angle of 90.
(0000258)
Damian   
2015-01-04 19:41   
"Hitting in ammo storage should at least hurt some crewman and block the turret (if ammo storage doors was closed while explosion)"

It is not modelled yet. And we do not know yet how to implement Abrams crew safety and survivability features like isolated ammunition compartments. Tough our goal in final version is to make it not blowing up, in most worst cases scenarios disabled, just like in real life.

"but not allways possible (tank can be hidden)"

So? Like in real life.

"I love realism, but for naming realism proper definition if it is needed and i'm giving source, then you are telling me i dont know something, i'm asing real russian soldiers, and you block me. Realism is not how YOU se that, but this is how it works for ALL in REAL."

As I said, I spent days, weeks even, digging through documents and my own sources, creating based on them, Abrams armor model, and then calculating protection.

Do you know how difficult work it is? I don't care what real Russian soldiers say about Abrams, as none of them seen the damn thing in real life, or probably read anything worth about it besides some idiotic propaganda BS that "Abrams is inferior to our superior tanks and weapons".

If you will sit inside Abrams during tests you will notice that side hits to the turret damage it and block it or the gun receives damage.

Same for hull.

From the front Abrams (in variants present in the mod at the moment, which are one of the most modern ones) is preatty much invurnable to any AT weapon or ammunition, besides some weak spots.
(0000259)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 19:47   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 19:50)
""but not allways possible (tank can be hidden)"

So? Like in real life."
Yes, but in real shooting to side armor will have some after effects.

"If you will sit inside Abrams during tests you will notice that side hits to the turret damage it and block it or the gun receives damage."
Not really. which version are you using with your mod? Dev or 1.36?

Sometimes gun receive damage, but it depent of angle (as it should be), but turret never blocked for me
(0000260)
Damian   
2015-01-04 19:49   
"Yes, but in real shooting to side armor will have some after effects."

And it have, you can kill crew if it is directly on the projectile path.

"Not really. whcich version are you usinf with your mod? Dev or 1.36? "

Yes really, and Dev version I have is the same as release version, we tested it extensively, it works as intended, I have no problems with destroying Abrams or badly damaging it.
(0000261)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 19:51   
Can you spend me a while and not closing this ticket? I will make tests for you and show you final effect
(0000262)
Damian   
2015-01-04 19:54   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 20:17)
Sure, but then again, I tell you everything is fine. Just shoot the damn thing in to hull sides and it will blew up after few hits.

Or to put this another way around.

Our desired goal is to completely eliminating explosion from Abrams as this is unrealistic. (Other tanks also will have changed this to something more realistic at some point, even T tanks don't allways explode).

In worst cases scenarios, vehicle will be disabled (unable to fight) or will start with small fire and will be slowly consumed by it (this is the very, very worst scenario). Eventually we might add ammo cook offs, but in case of Abrams they won't doo much besides eliminating it's main gun ammo storage, turret can still be traversed in such situation, and if hull is not damaged, in reality vehicle can even move by it's own power.

The after armor effects is different kind of problem, not connected to vehicles or their armor and damage models, but with ammunition, we discussed this, there are some sollutions avaiable, we will see how it ends, as complete implementation of the whole system is scheduled at best for 0.4 version.

So you just see problems where there are no problems.
(0000264)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 20:10   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 20:14)
Now i see. I know hull damage is good - no doubt. I just present you how this look like on video:
http://youtu.be/yCZejZhfSKw [^]
And tell you that things you want to do is very hard (as you know already) Side armor on abrams turret is like... like its not exist and round is flying through. I woould chceck this in config if you agree, and find it, modify that, then tell you if this work. Im really impressed how you are gonna mod damage system on vehicles, BIS should help you with it, you are making big step in moding feature
(0000265)
Damian   
2015-01-04 20:14   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 20:15)
You can't change Abrams damage and armor in config because it is hardcoded to the model, not it's config. Or in other words, armor is modeled physically on vehicles model, and uses BIS physical ammo penetration system, not the hitpoints system.

And behavior of your copy of MOD is strange, we tested it extensively without problems.

Be sure you test it with vanilla content only, also check in game options if extended armor is enabled or disabled, try with both.

This problem was present during some tests in MP, but was solved long time ago. Try to redownload mod again if necessary.

It is really strange as I never had this problem.
(0000266)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 20:17   
Well, il try to enable extented armor. I am not using any other mod that can affect on armor (only half_sway for small weapons, and VTS_weaponresting) But it was on 0.3.0 without and with mods. I'll make new tests, please do not close the ticket. I know this is strange, for me its too strange, solving the problem will be simplier than we think, but i need to get it.
(0000267)
Damian   
2015-01-04 20:19   
Ah you can't get to it, simply because as I said, looking inside configs won't do anything, there is nothing armor model related there.

Wait few days, I will make extensive tests and discuss eventuall negative results with Reyhard.
(0000268)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 20:28   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 20:30)
Yes! I've got something. As you sayed its ammunition problem. I spawned T-100 and he can damage abrams turret without problem, all of RHS mod tanks, and weapons cant do anything about its turret. To damage abrams and force crew to evacuate i used one APFSDS round from T-100, we are close to resolve the bug! ;)

T-100 rounds work with extented armor enabled and disabled, RHS T-XX rounds not work with both options :(
(0000269)
Damian   
2015-01-04 20:33   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 20:34)
No we are not, and do not expect we will use your sollution, as you completely don't understand the whole system.

The vanilla content use hitpoints based system which is flawed as vanilla content is not compataibile with RHS.

RHS system is based on physical interaction between modeled armor and projectile, and turret or hull or engine are damaged only, if armor is breached and a hitpoint of this components is hit by projectile.

Which means that there are hardcoded armor models in to vehicle model with proper KE and CE protection, and there are rounds which have their proper penetration values in config which are not based on hitpoints system.

Which means that vanilla content ammunition, does not even need to pierce through armor to damage vehicle.
(0000270)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 20:37   
Damm... I can add only think what can be observed on video - projectile is not penetrating armor in that case. There are specific efect with lot of sparks if round penetrate armor, and there is not. I dont know what can i say more to help you...
(0000271)
Damian   
2015-01-04 20:42   
Sparks are allways present when armor is hit by armor piercing projectile, I know that because I was advising ZGuba about this stuff when he was working on ArmA3.

I will do my own tests and ask other team members, but I suspect you have something broken, as you are the only one having these problems so far.
(0000273)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 20:45   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 20:46)
Yes i was having same feels, so i reainstalled arma, your mod have re-downloaded 2 times, and still nothing. I'm not sure but this was present even with T-72 turret (side and back armor) - i've been hitet twice in rear part of turret with M136 on 0.3.0 version with no efect. May this depend of language in game, some setting on steam or in game?
(0000274)
MistyRonin   
2015-01-04 20:46   
We'll do something.

Even if this issue has already been answered a lot of times before, I'll keep this issue open exceptionally, so you can rant whatever you want. BUT if you open one more issue talking about Abrams, I'll ban you from the tracker.

And being sincere, I would prefer to avoid that :)
(0000275)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 20:47   
OK Misty Ronin, remember i want to resolve this issue same as you
(0000277)
Damian   
2015-01-04 21:03   
Ok, MistyRonin tested his downloaded version, and there are no problems, vehicle behaves as intended.

I will test if possible my own version tonight to be sure.

But it seems it is a problem on your end... do you have latest ArmA3 version? 1.36?
(0000278)
MistyRonin   
2015-01-04 21:13   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 21:28)
As an update, I found a few spots where the armor deflects, we'll look into that.

Image of the tests: http://i.imgur.com/zxm1Wim.jpg [^]
(0000279)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-04 22:11   
(edited on: 2015-01-04 22:20)
After hour of tests.... got some resoult
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p746/vlad_8011/questions/Abramspenetrationdiagram_zps1183a5aa.png [^]

I also looked inside ammo files (didnt edited it, extracted somwhere else) and ammo values look ok (RHA, hit values), there is nothing missing. There must be some with value of turret armor. I was shooting a little from above and all rounds was passing through turret and hiting ground beyond tank. It look like armor value on green sector (from picture) doesnt exist or its somehow too big. I also was shooting to T-72 turret - damage system is ok, but when turret is on red status - its still working (can rotate), gun is down. This is good. With abrams - i placed all versions of them, and start firing in same place with T-80, T-72 and abrams a1 and a2 with heat, sabot, atgm - with no efect.... I dont know what test u can make more. If you got some idea, write, i'll make more tests tomorrow.
(0000282)
Damian   
2015-01-04 23:45   
We are investigating. Reyhard checked armor model for hull front yesterday and it seemed to be ok, there is something fishy going on.
(0000291)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-05 11:37   
Yep,front turret armor and overall hull armor are ok, and works great. Only this sides and back....
(0000293)
Tachi   
2015-01-05 12:11   
Maybe it's because RHS penetration system counts only direct hits, and those hits that a fired at some angle are not counting at all?
(0000294)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-05 12:22   
(edited on: 2015-01-05 13:09)
As i writed before, side of abrams (only) turret is untouchable - i can make a direct hit, ricochete and nothing. Rest of armor values works fine.

EDIT:
I was making next test, driving around abrams and hiting only side and rear part of turret from deferent angles and whole vehicle was intact - i get out t-72 and geted in Abrams and saw that vehicle was in "green" condition like it wasnt hited at all. i was mad and started to drive this tank (abrams) and found one more little bug connected with "turn out" option . If you are on drivers seat and turn out, then turn in your camera will be in the hull but no using periscope, if you go to gunners seat you will not see sight, just hull from inside model. Fix is ease - pres 3rd person view, then 1st person view. This is just by the way, but no problem for me. I rarely use abrams and more rearely turn out option on it beacuse of great sights. Today i launched game on developer version - same issue with that armor, then 1.36 - still no change. You have sayed this was on some MP tests - maybe its depend of region ?

Can i Ask You ALL PLAYERS to check that issue on your mods in free time? I dont know what is going on here and i have no good experience with original games - i'm using first original windows, and original arma 3, i never had so much bugs/errors/crashes on copy of win XP and copy of arma I. So i bough original w/ queens gambit - problems have started. Then i played copy arma II - fade protection was making game unplayable. now Arma 3 - great (the best mod) and only i have a problem.... how is this possible, does god hate me?
(0000296)
Damian   
2015-01-05 13:41   
(edited on: 2015-01-05 13:42)
Reyhard found problems and we believe they were all fixed, these were small bugs yet significant enough, that slipped through our control, today I will make tests personally of fixed vehicles to check if everything is ok, if so then next release version will have them fixed.
(0000298)
vlad_8011   
2015-01-05 14:24   
Thanks Damian, i really like your help.
(0000304)
MistyRonin   
2015-01-05 16:21   
(edited on: 2015-01-05 16:22)
Solved in the next patch ( all Thanks to Reyhard ).