0000824: Abrams cannot harm buildings, sabot doesnt do as much damage as it should

Notes
(0001737) PuFu (administrator) 2015-07-13 23:02	try without any other addon but RHS once more = as in without ACE or CBA

(0001738) maffa (reporter) 2015-07-14 00:05 edited on: 2015-07-14 00:30	Retried with only rhs usaf and afrf. Got pretty similar results. M1A1(either army and marines) cannot pierce a house wall neither with APFSDS nor with HE ammo: i used the all up, one after the other to see if adding one on top of the other would have changed anything, with no sensible difference. It also takes more than 4 hit to blow a Mi 24 up, and more than 2 hits to blow a HEMMT. Army's M1A2 got better, as it now takes only 4 HE hits to take down a house's wall, but still 2+ APFSDS hits to blow a Mi 24. My benchmark was a M2A4 UP Slammer, where it needs just a hit with a HE to severely damage a wall (when it turns grey), and at that point you can just blow some air on it and it will crumble (APFSDS just doesnt do any damage at all). Against the Mi-24 it needs 3 APFSDS blows to set it on fire, and just a hit to blow a HEMMT up. The slammer turns for some reason in a Merkava if use ACE... As things stad now i feel the one that needs powering up the most is the M1A1. edit: i keep referring them as M2A1, but it's M1A2... my bad

(0001740) Bad Tankman (viewer) 2015-07-14 16:35 edited on: 2015-07-14 16:37	You cannot destroy building with sabot in real life. Sabot round goes straight through walls making low damage to them (almost no damage). Same with Mi-24 - you havent hitted hitpoint in it. Vanilla vehicles cannot be compared its "another shelf", it is very realistic as it is, look for ammo using tutorials, which round is for which target. Also note for destroying helis you need (its best) to use HE round.

(0001742) maffa (reporter) 2015-07-14 17:54 edited on: 2015-07-14 18:03	I dont want to go too much in detail here, but i guess a couple or several sharpened impoverished uranium poles hurled at a normal house brick wall at mach 4 can make some substantial structural damage, not just "plain nothing" (this independently by the cannon or tank firing them), even when specifically aiming at (closed) windows. Same thing goes for helis: a heli is not that big, hitpoints are pretty close to each other, and for good measure i was only a few dozen feet away aiming for rear and main rotors: if you hurl a sharpened impoverished uranium pole against a metal vehicle without any specific active or passive defenses you gotta be skewered and rendered useless. But let's say this is more of a feature than a issue (for instance, such a piercing attack should be very susceptible of inclination and richocheting i guess). The real issue is that M1A1 cannot do any of the above, sabot or HE. The cannon is nominally the same as the M1A2 (which is a M1A1 with better computer systems and armour), but the damage model is completely different, as if it were just scaled down a couple of notches because the terminal number is lower.

(0001746) Damian (reporter) 2015-07-14 22:48 edited on: 2015-07-14 22:49	Ok few things. 1) M829 series APFSDS ammunition is not designed to destroy buildings. 2) M830 HEAT/MPAT ammunition is not designed to destroy buildings. 3) M1069 HE ammunition is designed to destroy buildings. Besides this we can't increase hit value in ammo configs too much because our armor-ammunition interaction systems works differently, and this would fuck it nicely. So something for something, you have a choice, or more realistic vehicle armor, damage and ammo system, or more arcadish buildings destroyer. We will try to find solution, but still, for future, have in mind arma engine limitations. Oh and one more thing, in mod we have M1A1SA, M1A1FEP and M1A2SEP variants and this will stay as such for a longer time, all are most modern Abrams variants, all share the same armor, 3rd generation heavy armor package, and all have more or less the same electronics, M1A2SEP is kinda more advanced, but not that much.

(0001747) maffa (reporter) 2015-07-15 00:44 edited on: 2015-07-15 10:49	i understand that, codewise, touching the balance between armor & ammunition could break more things that it could heal, although i stand my case that a modern MBT against a house should have no problems at all (i mean, what about the havoc brought by tanks in WWII?), and that a DU pole capable of penetrating 640mm of steel shouldnt have any problem penetrating and thus structurally damaging the outer walls of a common house (not a bunker: a mortar and bricks house): a few of these should compromise the wall altogether. Could it be possible, as a patch solution, equipping all M1's with all three ammo? All M1's share the same Rheinmetal M256 120mm cannon, and all these can indifferently shoot all ammo; the difference between M1A1 and M1A2 is in a improved FCS and armour. In game instead M1A1 are just overall weaker tanks than M1A2 due to ammo, which is irreasonably gamey. http://www.gd-ots.com/LCA_120mm_M1028.html [^] http://www.gd-ots.com/download/120mm%20M1028%20Canister.pdf [^] http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/120.htm [^]

(0001748) Bad Tankman (viewer) 2015-07-15 11:36 edited on: 2015-07-15 11:38	Maffa, read about US tank loadout for diferent models. M1A1 have diferent loadouts (choosed by the crew, it was writed here many times) M1A2, have diferent loadouts (again, choosed by the crews). RHS team done their job well, they setted compromised loadouts, based on real sources like crewman reports, intrviews, etc. There is no such strictly designed loadout for each tank, but "standard" is like in mod now, there is seriosly nothing to change, its not battlefield 3, where you was using one round to all, rounds are disigned to its targets, thats all. US army is "fresh" in using HE rounds in M1, they have just apply it.

(0001751) maffa (reporter) 2015-07-15 13:23 edited on: 2015-07-15 13:39	whatever loadout real tanks have, these ammo doesnt replicate them faithfully, as Damian wrote. Compromises had to be done because armour piercing and damage need to be tweaked carefully. A real world M1A1 crew shouldnt worry about infantry hiding inside a one floor brick and mortar house, or hut, because one blast of anything they have (maybe but the 7.65 gun) can penetrate the walls and lay waste of any living being behind. Here on Arma it is not the case. If infantry is hiding inside a house in Stratis a M1A1 cannot harm them even if i aim for the windows with the wooden shutters closed. This is lame. That ammo workaround is (IMHO) a good compromise between real world (loadout, as well as ammo behaviour) and game necessities.

(0001752) Damian (reporter) 2015-07-15 15:25	Maffa you are wrong. Read and learn something. 1) All currently in service in the US Armed Forces M1 variants, this is M1A1SA, M1A1FEP and M1A2SEP have: a) The same armor protection, all have the same weight, 63,5 metric tons, armor thickness is the same, special armor modules installed in hull front, turret front and sides, are the same 3rd generation Heavy Armor Package. b) All have the same sights, same FCS, same BMS, there are only very small differences like M1A2SEP have CITV while M1A1SA/FEP don't. 2) All M1's in our mod represent today standards, which means all can have and have the same loadouts, actually I think we made a bit artificial move and equipped M1A1's with M829A2 APFSDS to balance it a bit, while today standard APFSDS is M829A3, and next year standard ammo should be even newer M829A4. Same with HEAT/MPAT, today standard are both M830 HEAT and M830A1 MPAT, while in 2018 all non APFSDS ammo, so M830, M830A1, M1028 will be replaced by a single HE with prorammable fuze the M1069, we have it in mod right now, tough it is not programmable yet and acts only as pure HE. 3) The M256 120mm smoothbore gun used by M1A1/M1A2 is not Rhinemetall gun the Rh120. It is a myth spreaded by morons that neither understand reality, neither have technical knowledge. Both M256 and Rh120 are based on the same technology developed by Rhinemetall, however they are different guns. M256 is lighter than Rh120 (which is good, it causes less problems for stabilization system, and more weight can be used for armor). M256 and Rh120 are not interchangable, which means you can't place M256 in Leopard 2 turret, or Rh120 in M1A1/M1A2 turret. The breach is different, attachement points are different, recoil mechanism is different and so on. Same story with 105mm M68 gun. This was never a British gun, it have absolutely nothing in common with British L7 105mm gun. M68 is a further development of experimental T254 gun, T254 during development was designed in such way it had interchangable barrel with L7 but that's it. What Americans used in M68 and it was British, was only general design of bore evacuator, because British one was assymetrical and allowed greater gun depression angles than symetrical US bore evacuator. However M68 have completely different breach, different recoil mechanism and so on, compared to L7, this is not the same gun. However make a note, I might talk with guys and change loadouts a bit, what I would do would be: a) Give all standard variants (M1A1SA, M1A1FEP, M1A2SEP) the same ammo loudouts for main gun so : M829A3 APFSDS, M830 HEAT or M830A1 MPAT. b) Give all variants with TUSK kits a slightly different loadouts : M829A3 APFSDS, M1069 HE. Also we need to fix some things with FCS, like how lead is applied, right now it's applied by a script and refreshed around 1 sec. This causes lagg, Reyhard said he might change how lead is applied to mouse movement, and this should make it both smoother, and more responsive to players actions.

(0001753) maffa (reporter) 2015-07-15 16:02 edited on: 2015-07-15 17:36	thanks damian for the explanation and for your patience. as far as this discussion is concerned (facing infantry hiding inside houses), i cannot speak for sabot rounds because none i tried was any effective, but neither M830 nor M830A1 MPAT were effective at all (as in i depleted all the rounds and didnt make a single dent) so id be happy with M1069, as things stand (i.e. if it is not possible breaching a brick and mortar wall by tweaking the ammo's values) because it is the only one able to break through after a 2/3 hits. I dont know if that would unbalance things on other sectors, because i cannot imagine what could be made easier to break by a M1069 that a M830(A1 or not) could not among softer targets (and BTW HE rounds already come in lower numbers so maybe not big deal). If it's not possible, could it be possible introducing the M908 obstacle reduction as a new feature, and/or the M1028 canister, or anything else you may find approrpate to face this problem? I know I sounds preposterous, but i cannot really accept the fact that a MBT is powerless against a holiday house brick and mortar wall, and that all infantry has to do to escape a tank is hiding behind 40cm of clay bricks and some whitewash.

(0001756) Damian (reporter) 2015-07-15 20:52	M830 and M830A1 uses shaped charges, these are not entirely ammo designed against structures like buildings, it's still pretty much armor piercing ammo. And in RHS it acts like this, cause during impact in game, our HEAT/MPAT ammo generates shaped charge jet (well kinda, it's a bit of walkaround ;)). M1069 on the other hand, acts like normal ArmA3 HE, tough it still will need some work later on, like programmable fuze. As for M908, it's just M830A1 with slightly redesigned warhead, we might add it later but in fact it will just double the current role of M1069. M1028 is a bit different thing, we might thing about it, but as for now there are more important things I think. Tough mind that I agree it's a problem, I need to discuss that with Reyhard, Olds and Bakerman.

(0001757) maffa (reporter) 2015-07-15 21:12	you minding the problem is all i need to know. you are much knowledgeable than me, so i trust you, even though IMHO, as far as the game is concerned, giving the M1069 canister to M1A1's could be the fastest way to address the problem, since it already damages and destroys a wall in two three rounds. I will look forward for it :)

(0001758) Damian (reporter) 2015-07-15 23:17	One thing, M1069 is not cannister, that's M1028. M1069 is a modern HE with programmable fuze, which means you can program it before firing in to 3 different modes. Mode 1 is classic HE with explosion upon impact, nothing fancy here. Mode 2 is airburst, very usefull when firing at target hiding behind some obstacles. Mode 3 and this is the most interesting, is armor piercing/delay, it's designed to defeat light armor and older tanks with steel armor only, first it pierces through armor and then explodes inside, during tests it pierced through T-55 side turret armor which is around 150mm cast homogeneus steel armor. Very good result for HE round.

Issue History
Date Modified	Username	Field	Change
2015-07-13 12:02	maffa	New Issue
2015-07-13 23:02	PuFu	Note Added: 0001737
2015-07-14 00:05	maffa	Note Added: 0001738
2015-07-14 00:30	maffa	Note Edited: 0001738	View Revisions
2015-07-14 14:46	maffa	Tag Attached: tank
2015-07-14 14:46	maffa	Tag Attached: APFSDS
2015-07-14 14:46	maffa	Tag Attached: HE
2015-07-14 14:46	maffa	Tag Attached: M1A1
2015-07-14 14:46	maffa	Tag Attached: sabot
2015-07-14 16:35	Bad Tankman	Note Added: 0001740
2015-07-14 16:36	Bad Tankman	Note Edited: 0001740	View Revisions
2015-07-14 16:37	Bad Tankman	Note Edited: 0001740	View Revisions
2015-07-14 17:54	maffa	Note Added: 0001742
2015-07-14 17:55	maffa	Note Edited: 0001742	View Revisions
2015-07-14 17:55	maffa	Note Edited: 0001742	View Revisions
2015-07-14 18:03	maffa	Note Edited: 0001742	View Revisions
2015-07-14 22:48	Damian	Note Added: 0001746
2015-07-14 22:49	Damian	Note Edited: 0001746	View Revisions
2015-07-15 00:44	maffa	Note Added: 0001747
2015-07-15 00:46	maffa	Note Edited: 0001747	View Revisions
2015-07-15 00:52	maffa	Note Edited: 0001747	View Revisions
2015-07-15 08:22	maffa	Note Edited: 0001747	View Revisions
2015-07-15 10:47	maffa	Note Edited: 0001747	View Revisions
2015-07-15 10:47	maffa	Note Edited: 0001747	View Revisions
2015-07-15 10:48	maffa	Note Edited: 0001747	View Revisions
2015-07-15 10:49	maffa	Note Edited: 0001747	View Revisions
2015-07-15 11:36	Bad Tankman	Note Added: 0001748
2015-07-15 11:36	Bad Tankman	Note Edited: 0001748	View Revisions
2015-07-15 11:38	Bad Tankman	Note Edited: 0001748	View Revisions
2015-07-15 13:23	maffa	Note Added: 0001751
2015-07-15 13:24	maffa	Note Edited: 0001751	View Revisions
2015-07-15 13:39	maffa	Note Edited: 0001751	View Revisions
2015-07-15 15:25	Damian	Note Added: 0001752
2015-07-15 16:02	maffa	Note Added: 0001753
2015-07-15 17:36	maffa	Note Edited: 0001753	View Revisions
2015-07-15 20:52	Damian	Note Added: 0001756
2015-07-15 21:12	maffa	Note Added: 0001757
2015-07-15 23:17	Damian	Note Added: 0001758
2015-09-14 01:43	Soul_Assassin	Status	new => closed
2015-09-14 01:43	Soul_Assassin	Assigned To	=> Soul_Assassin
2015-09-14 01:43	Soul_Assassin	Resolution	open => no change required

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