0002629: BMD-4M and 3UBR8 Kerner issue

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Summary	0002629: BMD-4M and 3UBR8 Kerner issue

Revision	2016-08-31 06:15 by razy
Description	Reportedly, Kerner was initially ordered by the Russian Navy for their CIWS. In case of belt fed 2A42 operated by Russian Ground Forces it can only be used in when mixed with other standard-length rounds due to being shorter than usual Soviet\Russian 2A42\2A72\2A38 ammunition (252mm length for 3UBR8; 291mm for 3UBR6, 3OR6, 3UOF8, etc). The manual (link in the sources) recommends 6-to-1 ratio of APDS (3UBR8) to AP (3UBR6) with two additional AP at the beginning and at the end of each belt. This brings up the issue of simulating different trajectories and penetration powers for different ammo types in one belt. Just in case, I'd like to add that because of the way 2A72 cannon's recoil mechanism functions, it's impossible to use 3UBR8 with it. Round's visual comparison with 3UBR6: http://img-novosib.fotki.yandex.ru/get/5810/94845085.76/0_6897c_46de4a9a_XL.jpg [^] Here are alternative modern 30mm rounds that can really be used in BMD-4M (as well as other vehicles equipped with 2A42\2A72) that do not have same mixing issues: * 3UBR11 APFSDS (penetration value and initial speed not known, sadly, but should be higher than 3UBR8 APDS), new 3UBR10 AP with plastic leading belt: http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-290514112712.jpeg [^] * 3UBR11 vs 3UBR8: http://uploads.ru/TYpj3.jpg [^] * 3UOF21, 3UOR7, 3UBR10: http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-300514101143-94441038.jpeg [^] * unidentified air-burst round (not much known tbh, shouldn't be considered seriously for now): http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-290514112436.jpeg [^] Fresh news of RuAF and Russian Fleet adopting newer rounds with plastic leading belts: http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3575717. [^] Sadly, there is no hard evidence of either Russian Ground Forces or VDV adopting these things. The likelihood of them having the newer rounds with other branches adopting them already is pretty high though especially considering Kerner's issues. If you require any additional proof\sources regarding Kerner just let me know, I'll look around. Sources: * http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=794&p=2#p316785 [^] * http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=999&p=8#p479360 [^] * http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1271&p=8#p786526 [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31422-3ubr8-kerner-30h165-mm-patron-s-podkalibernym-broneboyno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-bp.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31326-30h165-mm-patron-3ubr6-s-broneboyno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-bt.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31319-3uor6-30h165-mm-patron-s-oskolochno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-ot.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31318-3uof8-30h165-mm-patron-s-oskolochno-fugasno-zazhigatelnym-snaryadom-ofz.html [^] P.S. If need be, I can translate my post to Russian. EDIT: made my point a bit more clearer. EDIT2: added the manual, describing the round mixing issue and fixed the post accordingly. I'll continue updating this post if I find anything related to the issue.

Revision	2016-08-31 05:05 by razy
Description	Reportedly, Kerner was initially ordered by the Russian Navy for their CIWS. In case of belt fed 2A42 operated by Russian Ground Forces it can only be used in when mixed with other standard-length rounds due to being shorter than usual Soviet\Russian 2A42\2A72\2A38 ammunition (252mm length for 3UBR8; 291mm for 3UBR6, 3OR6, 3UOF8, etc). Moreover, because of the way 2A72 cannon's recoil mechanism functions, it's impossible to use 3UBR8 with it. Round's visual comparison with 3UBR6: http://img-novosib.fotki.yandex.ru/get/5810/94845085.76/0_6897c_46de4a9a_XL.jpg [^] Here are alternative modern 30mm rounds that can really be used in BMD-4M (as well as other vehicles equipped with 2A42\2A72\2A38): * 3UBR11 APFSDS (penetration value and initial speed not known, sadly, but should be higher than 3UBR8 APDS), new 3UBR10 AP with plastic leading belt: http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-290514112712.jpeg [^] * 3UBR11 vs 3UBR8: http://uploads.ru/TYpj3.jpg [^] * 3UOF21, 3UOR7, 3UBR10: http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-300514101143-94441038.jpeg [^] * unidentified air-burst round (not much known tbh, shouldn't be considered seriously for now): http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-290514112436.jpeg [^] Fresh news of RuAF and Russian Fleet adopting newer rounds with plastic leading belts: http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3575717. [^] Sadly, there is no hard evidence of either Russian Ground Forces or VDV adopting these things, but they definitely don't use Kerners in their APCs\IFVs for the reasons stated above. The likelihood of them having the newer rounds with other branches adopting them already is pretty high though. If you require any additional proof\sources regarding Kerner just let me know, I'll look around. Sources: * http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=999&p=8#p479360 [^] * http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1271&p=8#p786526 [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31422-3ubr8-kerner-30h165-mm-patron-s-podkalibernym-broneboyno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-bp.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31326-30h165-mm-patron-3ubr6-s-broneboyno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-bt.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31319-3uor6-30h165-mm-patron-s-oskolochno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-ot.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31318-3uof8-30h165-mm-patron-s-oskolochno-fugasno-zazhigatelnym-snaryadom-ofz.html [^] P.S. If need be, I can translate my post to Russian. EDIT: made my point a bit more clearer.

Revision	2016-08-31 04:36 by razy
Description	Reportedly, Kerner was initially ordered by the Russian Navy for their CIWS. It can only be used in mixed belt configurations due to being shorter than standard Soviet\Russian 2A42\2A72\2A38 ammunition (252mm length for 3UBR8, while 3UBR6, 3OR6, 3UOF8, etc are at 291mm). Round's visual comparison with 3UBR6: http://img-novosib.fotki.yandex.ru/get/5810/94845085.76/0_6897c_46de4a9a_XL.jpg [^] Although it is a bit out of context, but as an additional information that might be useful: due to the way 2A72 cannon's recoil mechanism functions, it's impossible to use 3UBR8 with it. Here are alternative modern 30mm rounds that can really be used in BMD-4M (as well as other vehicles equipped with 2A42\2A72\2A38): * 3UBR11 APFSDS (penetration value and initial speed not known, sadly), new 3UBR10 AP with plastic leading belt: http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-290514112712.jpeg [^] * 3UBR11 vs 3UBR8: http://uploads.ru/TYpj3.jpg [^] * 3UOF21, 3UOR7, 3UBR10: http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-300514101143-94441038.jpeg [^] * unidentified air-burst round (not much known tbh, shouldn't be considered seriously for now): http://www.patronen.su/forum/gallery/1-290514112436.jpeg [^] Fresh news of RuAF and Russian Fleet adopting newer rounds with plastic leading belts: http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3575717. [^] Sadly, there is no hard evidence of either Russian Ground Forces or VDV adopting these things, but they definitely don't use Kerners in their APCs\IFVs for the reasons stated above. The likelihood of them having the newer rounds with other branches adopting them already is pretty high though. If you require any additional proof\sources regarding Kerner just let me know, I'll look around. Sources: * http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1271&p=8#p786526 [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31422-3ubr8-kerner-30h165-mm-patron-s-podkalibernym-broneboyno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-bp.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31326-30h165-mm-patron-3ubr6-s-broneboyno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-bt.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31319-3uor6-30h165-mm-patron-s-oskolochno-trassiruyuschim-snaryadom-ot.html [^] * http://armyman.info/biop/snaryady/31318-3uof8-30h165-mm-patron-s-oskolochno-fugasno-zazhigatelnym-snaryadom-ofz.html [^] P.S. If need be, I can translate my post to Russian.