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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0005841AFRF[All Projects] Generalpublic2020-08-20 06:242020-08-21 17:01
ReporterShaKodemon 
Assigned Toreyhard 
PrioritynoneSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusnewResolutionopen 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Summary0005841: avionic in russian heli KA-52,Mi-28 (laser ranger)
Descriptionin gun camera (gunner seat) laser ranger not show distance to target more, than 4.9 km (KA-52,Mi-28)
Steps To Reproduceon Ka-52 and Mi-28 shoot in targets from distance more than 4.9km
Additional Informationthis video (0,50 sec) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHPlUi0UE5k [^]
distanse 7,8 km.
at 1.42 sec distanse 8.04km
TagsNo tags attached.
Is it a wish/request?No
RHS versionStable
Arma 3 version1.98
Did you used any other mod when the error occurred?No
Which mods?
Attached Filesjpg file icon 111111111111.jpg [^] (158,491 bytes) 2020-08-21 09:55

- Relationships

-  Notes
(0010957)
reyhard (administrator)
2020-08-20 08:21

As far as I know ranges above 5km are obtained from radar and it only works when you have target selected . If you have some better sources then please feel free to share them
(0010959)
ShaKodemon (reporter)
2020-08-20 09:00

in this video (1.35) shoot at the building (flight time of missels 18c, it's like 8-9 km distanse) and i think it's hard to select building in radar, as target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqsDTmbEvaI [^]
also in DCS:KA-50 laser ranger work and show distance to 10-15 km and more, but ka-50 havn't radar
I cannot provide better sources
(0010960)
reyhard (administrator)
2020-08-20 09:55
edited on: 2020-08-20 10:00

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D1%85%D1%80%D1%8C_(%D0%9F%D0%A2%D0%A0%D0%9A) [^]
    На максимальную дальность: 28 с
    На дальность 8 000 м: 23 с
    На дальность 6 000 м: 14 с
it would be closer to 6000-7000 meters.

Anyway, since distance wasn't visible at all on video, rough time to target could be also estimated from height of helicopter & it's angle (triangulation method). Something like that is used i.e. on Mi-24 ASO17V gun sight
https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2975937&postcount=706 [^]
https://imgur.com/a/ofdnF2R [^]

Also to add to it, laser range finder which are mounted on ground vehicles usually have range from 1 (hand held binocs) to 8 km (M1A2) with exception being LRAS3 (10km) but there you can notice how big the laser need to be to get laser reflection strong enough to get back to helicopter.

Adding inaccurate range distance based on triangulation method could be an option but not sure how real Ka-52 is handling that. I guess there could be some sort of switch but I also don't want to make some fantasy capabilities for it.

(0010962)
ShaKodemon (reporter)
2020-08-21 06:23
edited on: 2020-08-21 06:53

on ground vehicles -tank M1A2 laser ranger work up to 8 km, on heli only 4.9?(it's not even logical) For heli no relief, clean atmosphere, no dust, no smoke, and you think KA-52 need big and strong laser? Besides the Apache AH-64 in your mod measures range up to 9999 m. ( it have strong enough laser?)

add: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ91OQXRFNc [^]
05 sec (Mi-28) building in the distance 6.3 km

(0010964)
reyhard (administrator)
2020-08-21 08:09

M1 tank is 60 tones tank. Helicopter are way lighter and are using light equipment. How that is not logical? Really take a look how laser range finder looked like on early bmp3 and then try to squish that equipment into small rotatable turret of ka 52. Of course, there is ongoing miniaturisation of all electronic equipment but generally speaking Russian equipment is still lagging being in few areas (ti cameras for instance)

Seeing how fast range is updated I'm almost sure it's triangulation rather than laser range finder.
(0010966)
ShaKodemon (reporter)
2020-08-21 09:42
edited on: 2020-08-21 09:56

1)Vikhr -laser guided missile, it doesn't work without laser, i showed you a video of shooting at 8 km,what other proof do you need?
2) you didn't answer why Apache AH-64 in this case measures the range up to 9 999м?
3) even if КА-52 and Mi-28 does not have laser range (what is not correct,because Vikhr -laser guided missile(1), why triangulation method not work in you mod, and i can't measure distance more than 4.9км?

add:helicopters are huge, you really think there is not enough space for laser range?(picture above)
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/tiberius66/64946744/245089/245089_900.jpg [^]

(0010967)
reyhard (administrator)
2020-08-21 11:10

1) laser range finding & laser beam ridding are two different things - in case of LRF return of laser beam is important. In case of laser beam reading, you don't need laser beam to return to helicopter so range can be twice as large.
2) It could be mistake, I have to check it but last time I checked it was 8km?
3) It would require different mechanic, otherwise it would be fake laser

"add:helicopters are huge, you really think there is not enough space for laser range?(picture above)" you cannot randomly squeeze laser range finder i.e. in tail :D I mean, you could, but then you would i.e. measure distance from tail to ground :D You have to squeeze it here basically with all other equipment https://imgur.com/a/JA2fSgr [^]
(0010968)
ShaKodemon (reporter)
2020-08-21 11:48
edited on: 2020-08-21 11:50

website of the Russian manufacturer of helicopter aiming systems
https://nppame.com/products/optika/girostabilizirovannaja-optiko-jelektronnaja-sistema-4-3/ [^]

weight 32kg
laser distance up to 18 km

( on first video even the eyes can see the laser spot on target-laser beam easily returns to the helicopter sight,because it is much more sensitive than the eye)

(0010969)
reyhard (administrator)
2020-08-21 12:59

Now if you can find information on тоэс-521 then I can think about some changes ;) Notice that Yasnost' 1-5 have maximal range between 5-8 km
(0010970)
ShaKodemon (reporter)
2020-08-21 13:36

i think, if I will be looking for information about тоэс-521, I will have problems with the law in my country.
where is your proof that the laser rangefinder works only up to 5 km?

-i gave you some videos
-manufacturer website
-information from the best digital simulator- DCS
-logical reasoning
I give up,this is some kind of prejudgment towards Russian equipment (or racism towards everything Russian)? AH64 has an ideal laser rangefinder, Abrams easily takes 12 hits by ATGM-fine, keep living in your perfect one-sided world, good luck.
(0010971)
reyhard (administrator)
2020-08-21 16:54
edited on: 2020-08-21 17:01

https://nppame.com/products/optika/girostabilizirovannaja-optiko-jelektronnaja-sistema-5/ [^] - here you have 5km ;)

I mean, we cannot make changes because someone has just feeling its wrong. Otherwise you would end up with one side world made since everything would subjective.

Facts, on the other hand, are quite objective so that's why we try to collect as much proofs as it's possible.

I also gave you logical reasoning and agreed with some points but it seems it was only one sided, since none of my arguments was treated as valid. I explained to you how i.e. laser range finders but you didn't seemed to be interested in it.

I'm also not sure if you are aware, but there are also multiple different variants of Ka-52 & Mi-28 which vary with onboard equipment. Ka-52 for instance depicts very early variant of Ka-52 and Mi-28N is not the newest variant available.


https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=815314&postcount=10 [^]
Be aware that rangefinding takes much more power than missile guidance. The rangefinding beam has to travel all the way to the target (which is painted to not reflect), bounce off a funny shape, and come all the way back to be detected by equipment small enough to fly in a helicopter's nose. You need a very strong laser for this. Vikhr guidance shines on the back of the missile, one way trip, sensitive receivers that want to see the laser energy from the Ka-50.

3 seconds of laser rangefinder = MUCH POWER, MUCH HEAT
8+ seconds of laser Vikhr guidance = LESS (1%?) POWER, LESS HEAT


- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2020-08-20 06:24 ShaKodemon New Issue
2020-08-20 08:21 reyhard Note Added: 0010957
2020-08-20 08:21 reyhard Assigned To => reyhard
2020-08-20 08:21 reyhard Status new => feedback
2020-08-20 09:00 ShaKodemon Note Added: 0010959
2020-08-20 09:00 ShaKodemon Status feedback => new
2020-08-20 09:55 reyhard Note Added: 0010960
2020-08-20 09:55 reyhard Status new => feedback
2020-08-20 10:00 reyhard Note Edited: 0010960 View Revisions
2020-08-21 06:23 ShaKodemon Note Added: 0010962
2020-08-21 06:23 ShaKodemon Status feedback => new
2020-08-21 06:53 ShaKodemon Note Edited: 0010962 View Revisions
2020-08-21 08:09 reyhard Note Added: 0010964
2020-08-21 08:09 reyhard Status new => feedback
2020-08-21 09:42 ShaKodemon Note Added: 0010966
2020-08-21 09:42 ShaKodemon Status feedback => new
2020-08-21 09:53 ShaKodemon Note Edited: 0010966 View Revisions
2020-08-21 09:55 ShaKodemon File Added: 111111111111.jpg
2020-08-21 09:56 ShaKodemon Note Edited: 0010966 View Revisions
2020-08-21 11:10 reyhard Note Added: 0010967
2020-08-21 11:48 ShaKodemon Note Added: 0010968
2020-08-21 11:50 ShaKodemon Note Edited: 0010968 View Revisions
2020-08-21 12:59 reyhard Note Added: 0010969
2020-08-21 13:36 ShaKodemon Note Added: 0010970
2020-08-21 16:54 reyhard Note Added: 0010971
2020-08-21 16:58 reyhard Note Edited: 0010971 View Revisions
2020-08-21 17:01 reyhard Note Edited: 0010971 View Revisions


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