RHS Feedback - AFRF
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0006786AFRF[All Projects] Generalpublic2022-12-19 13:292022-12-21 08:13
ReporterTotTIM 
Assigned Toreyhard 
PrioritynoneSeveritytweakReproducibilityalways
StatusclosedResolutionno change required 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Is it a wish/request?No
RHS versionStable
Arma 3 version2.12
Did you used any other mod when the error occurred?No
Which mods?
Summary0006786: T80-T90 closed-type machine guns.
DescriptionIt is necessary to introduce for the commander the ability to fire from a large-caliber machine gun while inside the tower. Because in the current RHS fashion, Russian tanks have the wrong commander machine guns, which can only be used when exiting the tank turret. As proof, I threw off a video (Additional information), where the tank man on the video says that most of the tanks of the T80-90 line have closed-type machine guns.


Steps To Reproduce
Additional Information
https://odetievbrony.ru/viewtopic.php?id=449 [^]
The tank's capabilities are discussed in detail on this forum. And I threw a link where the same commander's tower with a closed-type machine gun and a handle for controlling it from the inside is shown.
Also on this page (below) you can see old open-type machine guns.


Video T90 Demonstration of the interior. (This tank has a broken Night sight and a smoke screen removed)

https://skr.sh/i/191222/l4AcXizN.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2019-12-2022%2014:34:03.jpg [^]




https://youtu.be/Rjp4Y08TUCs?t=648 [^]

This is a video review of the Ukrainian tank brigade > captured Russian T90 tank. I translate what he says about some interesting facts. Which tells that most of the Russian tanks of the T80-T90 line, They have optics and a aiming joystick next to it to control a large-caliber closed-type machine gun. He demonstrates this to us in a video where an anti-aircraft grid is visible against aerial targets. Also after he demonstrates a small joystick on one finger, which can be controlled from the commander's seat using the main gun when switching control to himself.
I will add from myself the aiming grids can switch from an anti-aircraft sight to some other. Also, the author of the video said that this sight does not have a rangefinder and you need to set the range manually.




https://youtu.be/Rjp4Y08TUCs?t=670 [^]

In this video, he says that the commander has his own backup sight and control of the main gun. There is no rangefinder in the commander's place, but the author of the video says that the T84 has it. He also says that tanks are rusty and there are new ones... but this does not affect the combat characteristics


p.s.
Also at the beginning of this video, he points to a device that measures the side wind for a rangefinder that sets the desired side angle for an accurate hit.
https://youtu.be/Rjp4Y08TUCs?t=235 [^]
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Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2022-12-19 13:29TotTIMNew Issue
2022-12-19 13:49reyhardNote Added: 0012280
2022-12-19 13:49reyhardAssigned To => reyhard
2022-12-19 13:49reyhardStatusnew => feedback
2022-12-19 13:51reyhardNote Edited: 0012280bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=12280#r7737
2022-12-19 22:47TotTIMNote Added: 0012281
2022-12-19 22:47TotTIMStatusfeedback => new
2022-12-19 22:50TotTIMNote Edited: 0012281bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=12281#r7739
2022-12-20 08:37reyhardNote Added: 0012282
2022-12-20 08:37reyhardStatusnew => closed
2022-12-20 08:37reyhardResolutionopen => no change required
2022-12-20 11:48TotTIMNote Added: 0012283
2022-12-20 12:08TotTIMNote Added: 0012284
2022-12-20 12:30TotTIMNote Added: 0012285
2022-12-20 12:42TotTIMNote Added: 0012286
2022-12-20 12:47TotTIMNote Added: 0012287
2022-12-20 13:44reyhardNote Added: 0012288
2022-12-20 14:55TotTIMNote Added: 0012289
2022-12-21 08:13reyhardNote Added: 0012290

Notes
(0012280)
reyhard   
2022-12-19 13:49   
(edited on: 2022-12-19 13:51)
Can you perhaps say which exactly tank in RHS has wrong configuration when it comes to HMG? Variants of T80 which have remote MG, have such option in game.
(0012281)
TotTIM   
2022-12-19 22:47   
(edited on: 2022-12-19 22:50)
I'm using the latest version of Arma 3, ran RHS without additional mods. The commander's machine gun does not work on the T-80UK, T80-U, T-80U(45M) and T80UM tanks. They have a machine gun model, but it doesn't work. (machine guns must be open type)


Wishes:
I would also like to wish to add new versions of the T-80 base tanks with a closed type of machine gun. For example, the RHS has a T-80UE-1 tank with a closed commander's machine gunner. But the tank does not have a thermal imager on the main arrow. This site describes the 2nd version of this tank with a thermal imager on the main gun: https://odetievbrony.ru/viewtopic.php?id=344 [^]
screen: https://skr.sh/i/191222/PP8Tgrzd.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2000:50:14.jpg [^]


More suggestions: You can add the Ukrainian version of the T-72UA4 tank (T-72UA4; Ukraine) of a closed type (it is not necessary to make it by the RF Armed Forces, you can add it to some kind of civil resistance)
Screen T-72UA4 WIKI eng: https://skr.sh/i/191222/Nb7gCY7H.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2000:43:26.jpg [^]
(0012282)
reyhard   
2022-12-20 08:37   
"The commander's machine gun does not work on the T-80UK, T80-U, T-80U(45M) and T80UM tanks"

all of those tanks don't have remote machine gun in real life. You can do some more research if you don't believe me.
First of all, take a look at how those machine guns are mounted - they are pintled mounted which means they can be only operated from outside.
(0012283)
TotTIM   
2022-12-20 11:48   
I'm sorry. I realized that they have open-type machine guns and the question about open-type machine guns is closed. I'm talking about a new problem that I recently discovered. The models I have listed are T-80UK, T80-U, T-80U (45M) and T80UM. Their commander's machine gun does not work at all. I tried to sit behind them and shoot, in open mode, and I didn’t succeed.
Do I have to open a new reporting ticket for this?
(0012284)
TotTIM   
2022-12-20 12:08   
https://skr.sh/i/201222/5IG0xbJv.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2013:50:47.jpg [^]

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2-80%D0%A3 [^]

Sorry, my translator didn't translate well. I also want to point out the incorrect information in the English-language wiki that the T80U does not indicate the presence or absence of a machine gun from the commander.
Russian Wiki tells in more detail what is in the T80U line and what was put on it in the following models.
Also in the following models it is not indicated that the machine gun was removed from the tank.

Same. Let me remind you that an open-type machine gun can be freely placed on any tank, since there are mounts for it ... And it can also be removed.
It is produced separately and, if desired, for tasks, the machine gun can be removed or installed before the battle in a matter of minutes.


https://skr.sh/i/201222/wW7K3qjG.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2013:59:43.jpg [^]
https://skr.sh/i/201222/UuSZgKgE.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2014:03:54.jpg [^]

https://skr.sh/i/201222/PKT2CVgr.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2014:04:47.jpg [^]

https://skr.sh/i/201222/VAkEPK14.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2014:08:19.jpg [^]
(0012285)
TotTIM   
2022-12-20 12:30   
A good example is on the screen from Wikipedia. T80U with NSV machine gun on the turret. So, a machine gun for the commander, if desired, can be installed on absolutely any tank.
It seems to me that it is easier to give the map creator the opportunity to choose whether to enable or disable the possibility of using a machine gun on tanks of these models.
Since if we Google the T80U tank , we will see a machine gun in many photos of the NSVT ... Although the Wiki of the English version does not indicate about this is not a word.

T-80U
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:T-80U_(5).jpg?uselang=ru [^]

https://skr.sh/i/201222/e5JPdS1d.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2014:26:10.jpg [^]

T80-UK
https://skr.sh/i/201222/IexAJepm.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2014:29:16.jpg [^]
(0012286)
TotTIM   
2022-12-20 12:42   
I noticed the T80 has a mount on the turret. It does not allow the commander to fire freely 360 degrees. It is quite possible only at 180 in the front hemisphere.



https://skr.sh/sHUcCWhEd80 [^]

And most likely, aiming in this position, he will be able to shoot no more than 90-120 degrees
(0012287)
TotTIM   
2022-12-20 12:47   
https://skr.sh/i/201222/EHdkChAF.jpg?download=1&name=%D0%A1%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%88%D0%BE%D1%82%2020-12-2022%2014:44:16.jpg [^]

Several fasteners for different positions of the NSVT.
(0012288)
reyhard   
2022-12-20 13:44   
https://feedback.rhsmods.org/view.php?id=6531 [^] there is no need for such ticket. It was already explained few times on that feedback tracker that such pintle mount is nonsense in game and it's not going to be added to RHS
(0012289)
TotTIM   
2022-12-20 14:55   
Why, then, are the Abrams M1A1+ models equipped with the same open-type (smaller caliber) machine guns for ammunition loaders that can only shoot at the front projection? =)

I will say in defense of NSVT that it would not have been installed just like that. I play on the Serious games project in Tushino, where local PVP wars take place daily with the participation of 3 servers of 200-400 players on each server, where in the game you have 1 life and a view from 1 person... We have a suppression fire modification installed, and any fire from machine guns very much suppresses any enemy, especially from a large caliber. I will say that the machine gun is very effective in confined spaces, where, for example, you can put a machine gun so that it watches the back of the tank (for example, when the tank is sitting in ambush in an alley), and the commander himself sits inside or outside at will and watches the back of the tank. There were cases when UAZ or APC followed the tank and tried to catch it by surprise. Or infantrymen who think that if the tank has passed, then you can safely run.. And you go out and work on them. (Even if the commander dies, the shooter can work by himself, without the help of the commander). In emergency situations, when the tank has no support and there are clearly only enemies around, and you are in the forest, a machine gun is the only thing that can protect you from an RPG in the back... As we know, 1 hit from an RPG in 50% of cases almost completely incapacitates the tank. Keep in mind that in a game that lasts 2-3 hours, there are only 2-6 tanks. And the loss of one tank can greatly affect the outcome of the battle.
I will tell you about my personal experience when I first suppressed with fire and then killed an RPG soldier who was shooting at us from the side.(the armor saved us) All this happened on the move, the tank was traveling at an average speed through the forest without stopping, according to information, there were a lot of enemies around us (we were flanking). I was sitting in the commander's tower and watching the rear, when I heard a pop from the side and saw where the smoke was coming from, I realized that an RPG-7 fighter was sitting there in the fir trees, and I sat on an open-type machine gun and opened fire on a tree, and killed him so that he didn't have time to make a second one a shot from rpg7...Why did I do it? Because the tank tower turns for a long time, and the tank driver after the impact only pressed the gas to leave from there. There was no time to explain which azimuth to turn and which tree to shoot at.
Yes, the commander can lose his life... But a broken tank engine completely incapacitates the tank, and it will take many hours to repair it. And also, when the main gun of the tank is broken, and an enemy armored personnel carrier, or BMP, or UAZ with SPG9 drives up to you, then nothing but NSVT will save it as the only chance .... Yes, this machine gun does little in many situations... but this is a special emergency situation or, one might say, a backup option. No matter how you turn it, this machine gun doesn't make it useless. There were cases when the tank ran out of ammunition or the main gun was broken, and the machine gun of its commander was used to cover the passage to an important place.

NSVT shot down enemy "vartalets" many times, which were flying at low-level flight. (As we see now in the situation in Ukraine, all the turntables and planes are flying low, because there are enemy air defenses everywhere) In Arma 3, many buildings do not add up, and NSVT stitches buildings well.

Do not put a machine gun on tanks, because you just thought so and refer to some comments (Western media) about weapons, it is not logical. In a real war, everything works differently here. And any of the more large-caliber weapons is a significant backup option.
(0012290)
reyhard   
2022-12-21 08:13   
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/106017025779859456/963124726325207151/1-1.jpg [^] just take a look how usage of those MGs looks like. You can read on otvaga2004 forums how shitty this is to use during training, not to mention combat situation. Before doing some claims about some western bias, you should really do some research before - you didn't even bothered to verify that tanks which you reported should even have remote MG, so what you say from that point, I take with huge grain of salt.

Beside that, making that in Arma is waste of time considering how unpractical it would considering Arma technical restrictions. It will simply not happen in Arma 3 unless someone else will do it. There are more important things to do which require manpower in first place