RHS Feedback - AFRF
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0005841AFRF[All Projects] Generalpublic2020-08-20 06:242022-09-08 20:10
ReporterShaKodemon 
Assigned Toreyhard 
PrioritynoneSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusclosedResolutionsuspended 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Is it a wish/request?No
RHS versionStable
Arma 3 version1.98
Did you used any other mod when the error occurred?No
Which mods?
Summary0005841: avionic in russian heli KA-52,Mi-28 (laser ranger)
Descriptionin gun camera (gunner seat) laser ranger not show distance to target more, than 4.9 km (KA-52,Mi-28)
Steps To Reproduceon Ka-52 and Mi-28 shoot in targets from distance more than 4.9km
Additional Informationthis video (0,50 sec) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHPlUi0UE5k [^]
distanse 7,8 km.
at 1.42 sec distanse 8.04km
TagsNo tags attached.
Relationships
Attached Filesjpg 111111111111.jpg (158,491) 2020-08-21 09:55
https://feedback.rhsmods.org/file_download.php?file_id=2210&type=bug
jpg
Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2020-08-20 06:24ShaKodemonNew Issue
2020-08-20 08:21reyhardNote Added: 0010957
2020-08-20 08:21reyhardAssigned To => reyhard
2020-08-20 08:21reyhardStatusnew => feedback
2020-08-20 09:00ShaKodemonNote Added: 0010959
2020-08-20 09:00ShaKodemonStatusfeedback => new
2020-08-20 09:55reyhardNote Added: 0010960
2020-08-20 09:55reyhardStatusnew => feedback
2020-08-20 10:00reyhardNote Edited: 0010960bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=10960#r6966
2020-08-21 06:23ShaKodemonNote Added: 0010962
2020-08-21 06:23ShaKodemonStatusfeedback => new
2020-08-21 06:53ShaKodemonNote Edited: 0010962bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=10962#r6968
2020-08-21 08:09reyhardNote Added: 0010964
2020-08-21 08:09reyhardStatusnew => feedback
2020-08-21 09:42ShaKodemonNote Added: 0010966
2020-08-21 09:42ShaKodemonStatusfeedback => new
2020-08-21 09:53ShaKodemonNote Edited: 0010966bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=10966#r6970
2020-08-21 09:55ShaKodemonFile Added: 111111111111.jpg
2020-08-21 09:56ShaKodemonNote Edited: 0010966bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=10966#r6971
2020-08-21 11:10reyhardNote Added: 0010967
2020-08-21 11:48ShaKodemonNote Added: 0010968
2020-08-21 11:50ShaKodemonNote Edited: 0010968bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=10968#r6973
2020-08-21 12:59reyhardNote Added: 0010969
2020-08-21 13:36ShaKodemonNote Added: 0010970
2020-08-21 16:54reyhardNote Added: 0010971
2020-08-21 16:58reyhardNote Edited: 0010971bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=10971#r6975
2020-08-21 17:01reyhardNote Edited: 0010971bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=10971#r6976
2022-08-13 06:08reduxNote Added: 0012200
2022-09-02 19:25SemNote Added: 0012222
2022-09-02 19:27SemNote Edited: 0012222bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=12222#r7717
2022-09-02 19:28SemNote Edited: 0012222bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=12222#r7718
2022-09-03 15:00SemNote Edited: 0012222bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=12222#r7719
2022-09-08 20:10reyhardStatusnew => closed
2022-09-08 20:10reyhardResolutionopen => suspended

Notes
(0010957)
reyhard   
2020-08-20 08:21   
As far as I know ranges above 5km are obtained from radar and it only works when you have target selected . If you have some better sources then please feel free to share them
(0010959)
ShaKodemon   
2020-08-20 09:00   
in this video (1.35) shoot at the building (flight time of missels 18c, it's like 8-9 km distanse) and i think it's hard to select building in radar, as target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqsDTmbEvaI [^]
also in DCS:KA-50 laser ranger work and show distance to 10-15 km and more, but ka-50 havn't radar
I cannot provide better sources
(0010960)
reyhard   
2020-08-20 09:55   
(edited on: 2020-08-20 10:00)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D1%85%D1%80%D1%8C_(%D0%9F%D0%A2%D0%A0%D0%9A) [^]
    На максимальную дальность: 28 с
    На дальность 8 000 м: 23 с
    На дальность 6 000 м: 14 с
it would be closer to 6000-7000 meters.

Anyway, since distance wasn't visible at all on video, rough time to target could be also estimated from height of helicopter & it's angle (triangulation method). Something like that is used i.e. on Mi-24 ASO17V gun sight
https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2975937&postcount=706 [^]
https://imgur.com/a/ofdnF2R [^]

Also to add to it, laser range finder which are mounted on ground vehicles usually have range from 1 (hand held binocs) to 8 km (M1A2) with exception being LRAS3 (10km) but there you can notice how big the laser need to be to get laser reflection strong enough to get back to helicopter.

Adding inaccurate range distance based on triangulation method could be an option but not sure how real Ka-52 is handling that. I guess there could be some sort of switch but I also don't want to make some fantasy capabilities for it.
(0010962)
ShaKodemon   
2020-08-21 06:23   
(edited on: 2020-08-21 06:53)
on ground vehicles -tank M1A2 laser ranger work up to 8 km, on heli only 4.9?(it's not even logical) For heli no relief, clean atmosphere, no dust, no smoke, and you think KA-52 need big and strong laser? Besides the Apache AH-64 in your mod measures range up to 9999 m. ( it have strong enough laser?)

add: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ91OQXRFNc [^]
05 sec (Mi-28) building in the distance 6.3 km
(0010964)
reyhard   
2020-08-21 08:09   
M1 tank is 60 tones tank. Helicopter are way lighter and are using light equipment. How that is not logical? Really take a look how laser range finder looked like on early bmp3 and then try to squish that equipment into small rotatable turret of ka 52. Of course, there is ongoing miniaturisation of all electronic equipment but generally speaking Russian equipment is still lagging being in few areas (ti cameras for instance)

Seeing how fast range is updated I'm almost sure it's triangulation rather than laser range finder.
(0010966)
ShaKodemon   
2020-08-21 09:42   
(edited on: 2020-08-21 09:56)
1)Vikhr -laser guided missile, it doesn't work without laser, i showed you a video of shooting at 8 km,what other proof do you need?
2) you didn't answer why Apache AH-64 in this case measures the range up to 9 999м?
3) even if КА-52 and Mi-28 does not have laser range (what is not correct,because Vikhr -laser guided missile(1), why triangulation method not work in you mod, and i can't measure distance more than 4.9км?

add:helicopters are huge, you really think there is not enough space for laser range?(picture above)
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/tiberius66/64946744/245089/245089_900.jpg [^]
(0010967)
reyhard   
2020-08-21 11:10   
1) laser range finding & laser beam ridding are two different things - in case of LRF return of laser beam is important. In case of laser beam reading, you don't need laser beam to return to helicopter so range can be twice as large.
2) It could be mistake, I have to check it but last time I checked it was 8km?
3) It would require different mechanic, otherwise it would be fake laser

"add:helicopters are huge, you really think there is not enough space for laser range?(picture above)" you cannot randomly squeeze laser range finder i.e. in tail :D I mean, you could, but then you would i.e. measure distance from tail to ground :D You have to squeeze it here basically with all other equipment https://imgur.com/a/JA2fSgr [^]
(0010968)
ShaKodemon   
2020-08-21 11:48   
(edited on: 2020-08-21 11:50)
website of the Russian manufacturer of helicopter aiming systems
https://nppame.com/products/optika/girostabilizirovannaja-optiko-jelektronnaja-sistema-4-3/ [^]

weight 32kg
laser distance up to 18 km

( on first video even the eyes can see the laser spot on target-laser beam easily returns to the helicopter sight,because it is much more sensitive than the eye)
(0010969)
reyhard   
2020-08-21 12:59   
Now if you can find information on тоэс-521 then I can think about some changes ;) Notice that Yasnost' 1-5 have maximal range between 5-8 km
(0010970)
ShaKodemon   
2020-08-21 13:36   
i think, if I will be looking for information about тоэс-521, I will have problems with the law in my country.
where is your proof that the laser rangefinder works only up to 5 km?

-i gave you some videos
-manufacturer website
-information from the best digital simulator- DCS
-logical reasoning
I give up,this is some kind of prejudgment towards Russian equipment (or racism towards everything Russian)? AH64 has an ideal laser rangefinder, Abrams easily takes 12 hits by ATGM-fine, keep living in your perfect one-sided world, good luck.
(0010971)
reyhard   
2020-08-21 16:54   
(edited on: 2020-08-21 17:01)
https://nppame.com/products/optika/girostabilizirovannaja-optiko-jelektronnaja-sistema-5/ [^] - here you have 5km ;)

I mean, we cannot make changes because someone has just feeling its wrong. Otherwise you would end up with one side world made since everything would subjective.

Facts, on the other hand, are quite objective so that's why we try to collect as much proofs as it's possible.

I also gave you logical reasoning and agreed with some points but it seems it was only one sided, since none of my arguments was treated as valid. I explained to you how i.e. laser range finders but you didn't seemed to be interested in it.

I'm also not sure if you are aware, but there are also multiple different variants of Ka-52 & Mi-28 which vary with onboard equipment. Ka-52 for instance depicts very early variant of Ka-52 and Mi-28N is not the newest variant available.


https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=815314&postcount=10 [^]
Be aware that rangefinding takes much more power than missile guidance. The rangefinding beam has to travel all the way to the target (which is painted to not reflect), bounce off a funny shape, and come all the way back to be detected by equipment small enough to fly in a helicopter's nose. You need a very strong laser for this. Vikhr guidance shines on the back of the missile, one way trip, sensitive receivers that want to see the laser energy from the Ka-50.

3 seconds of laser rangefinder = MUCH POWER, MUCH HEAT
8+ seconds of laser Vikhr guidance = LESS (1%?) POWER, LESS HEAT
(0012200)
redux   
2022-08-13 06:08   
Mi-28 has radio command guided missiles
(0012222)
Sem   
2022-09-02 19:25   
(edited on: 2022-09-03 15:00)
https://youtu.be/MFvL6aTFxwE?t=93 [^]
This small hunting scope (from 2016) can range-finding up to 4000m. Why giant miliatary heli only 5km?
We see a lot of real KA 52 video in this discussion with indicator more than 5km and right ETOF seconds. You think it is video moatge?) Even if it is a combination of some kind of laser and radar technology - the fact is that in reality the distance to the object is displayed more than 5 km. It is a fact. Why not add this real fact to the game?