RHS Feedback - USAF
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0005145USAF[All Projects] Generalpublic2019-07-16 06:162019-07-19 08:58
ReporterSekiGamer 
Assigned Toreyhard 
PrioritynoneSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusclosedResolutionno change required 
PlatformWindowsOSWindows 10OS Version1809 17763.615
Product Version0.4.8 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Is it a wish/request?No
RHS versionStable
Arma 3 version1.90
Did you used any other mod when the error occurred?No
Which mods?
Summary0005145: Questionable flare count on the AH-64D
DescriptionA while ago there was an update that changed the AH-64D flare count to 164 (what the UH-60M had/has) to 30. Now, this decision never made much sense to me, but I just chalked it up to being an attempt to make the model more realistic.

But after doing some research, I found out that the AH-64 and the MH-60M use the same countermeasure suit.

Source: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/an-alq-211.htm [^]
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/an-alq-211.htm [^]

Upon further research into the subject, I found out that the primary system to deploy flares is the m-130 dispenser system.

Source: https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/m-130.htm [^]

The m-130 can hold a total of 30 flares which matches the number of flares the RHS AH-64D has. That being said, the AH-64D and the MH-60M have two of these dispensers mounted on either side so in total they should have 60 flares each.

Another thing to note is I think it would be better for the system to only have CM Bust mode and CM Single-mode like the vanilla helicopters so skilled pilots would have better control on how much flares are used.
Steps To Reproduce1. Make sure you're on the latest version of ARMA 3 and RHS USAF.
2. Load ARMA 3.
3. Go into any Arma 3 multiplayer or single-player session that lets you acquire an AH-64.
4. Fly the AH-64 and notice how you have 30 CM flares.
Additional Information
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Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2019-07-16 06:16SekiGamerNew Issue
2019-07-16 06:22SekiGamerOS => Windows 10
2019-07-16 06:22SekiGamerOS Version => 1809 17763.615
2019-07-16 06:22SekiGamerPlatform => Windows
2019-07-16 06:22SekiGamerProduct Version => 0.4.8
2019-07-16 08:10reyhardNote Added: 0009635
2019-07-16 08:10reyhardAssigned To => reyhard
2019-07-16 08:10reyhardStatusnew => feedback
2019-07-16 08:47SekiGamerNote Added: 0009636
2019-07-16 08:47SekiGamerStatusfeedback => new
2019-07-16 08:54reyhardNote Added: 0009637
2019-07-16 08:54reyhardStatusnew => feedback
2019-07-16 09:20SekiGamerNote Added: 0009638
2019-07-16 09:20SekiGamerStatusfeedback => new
2019-07-16 21:50reyhardNote Added: 0009640
2019-07-16 22:27SekiGamerNote Added: 0009641
2019-07-16 22:37SekiGamerNote Edited: 0009641bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=9641#r6322
2019-07-16 22:42reyhardNote Added: 0009642
2019-07-16 22:42reyhardNote Edited: 0009642bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=9642#r6324
2019-07-16 23:33SekiGamerNote Added: 0009643
2019-07-17 00:43SekiGamerNote Edited: 0009643bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=9643#r6326
2019-07-19 02:46SekiGamerNote Added: 0009651
2019-07-19 08:58reyhardNote Added: 0009652
2019-07-19 08:58reyhardStatusnew => closed
2019-07-19 08:58reyhardResolutionopen => no change required

Notes
(0009635)
reyhard   
2019-07-16 08:10   
Notice that ah64 is releasing both chafs and flares at the same moment. You can fill either chafs or flare to dispenser so half is chaff and other one is flare
(0009636)
SekiGamer   
2019-07-16 08:47   
Right so in total, you should be able to release chaff/flares 30 times? Right now you can only dispense chaff/flares 15 times since every time chaff/flares are dispensed 2 chaff/flares get spent.
(0009637)
reyhard   
2019-07-16 08:54   
It means there are 30 chaffs and 30 flares. Single mode is releasing 2 flares (left and right side) + 2 chaffs
(0009638)
SekiGamer   
2019-07-16 09:20   
Ah, so the helicopters are releasing 2 chaff and 2 flares in single-mode?

If that's the case then the flare/chaff system in all the other helicopters are wrong including the ones in the Russian helicopters.
(0009640)
reyhard   
2019-07-16 21:50   
Hm, indeed we might to revise Russian helicopters loadouts
(0009641)
SekiGamer   
2019-07-16 22:27   
(edited on: 2019-07-16 22:37)
If you are going to be reducing the flare count like in the AH-64D please remove the timed flare mode and replace them with single-mode.

Also if help is needed getting a realistic flare count for helicopters I will be willing to help.

That being said I still think that the AH-64 should have 60 CM, not 30.
(0009642)
reyhard   
2019-07-16 22:42   
@SekiGamer - Russian helicopters (not all though, Mi-28 seems to have such option) don't have single mode in real life so be cautious what you wishing for ;) Their current flare count is realistic yet it seems they should be flare only, since chaffs are not used on them due to different doctrine (radar guided missiles have trouble to lock on low flying helicopters due to background noise)

As for AH-64, I don't plan changing default loadout but I might add 60 flare only & 60 chaffs only magazines in config so mission makers would be able to adjust it.
(0009643)
SekiGamer   
2019-07-16 23:33   
(edited on: 2019-07-17 00:43)
Yes, I would like to be reasonable in my request so the helicopters that are capable of single-mode flares should have that instead of timed flares.

Although as far as Russian helicopters having realistic flare counts I would disagree.

Currently the Mi-28 has a realistic flare count (128 flares), however, the Ka-52 which should be using the same type of dispensers and configuration has 168 flares.

Also although I am having a lot of trouble finding actual data sheets on Russian vehicles (Maybe I should search in Russian), I found an image of the mi-24 with the dispensers in the picture. From counting the holes I found there to be 24 holes per dispenser and a total of 4 dispensers, meaning there should be 96 flares in total on the mi-24.

That being said I have been told that War Thunder has 168 flares on it's mi-24 so my speculation might be wrong.

Edit: I forgot to put the link to the picture I was talking about.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Mi24CP_%28modified%29.jpg/1200px-Mi24CP_%28modified%29.jpg [^]
(0009651)
SekiGamer   
2019-07-19 02:46   
Okay, small correction the mi-24 in War Thunder does not have 168 it has 128. I also did some testing with the RHS mi-24 and found out it launches chaff as well as flares.

I also want to bring up that I heard that the Arma 3 engine is not capable of simulating chaff/flares separately. So I think it would only be fair to have the proper amount of countermeasures instead of cutting them in half for lack of features.
(0009652)
reyhard   
2019-07-19 08:58   
arma is capable of doing + simulating chaffs & flares separately. As I mentioned, I will be adding some additional mag variants so mission makers will be able to switch their CM. Anyway, since AH-64 is fine and this went bit offtopic I'm closing this ticket and will work later and adjusting RU helicopters loadouts