RHS Feedback - USAF
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0002654USAF[All Projects] Generalpublic2016-09-10 19:302016-10-11 01:43
ReporterCrow 
Assigned Toreyhard 
PrioritynoneSeverityminorReproducibilityalways
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.4.2 
Is it a wish/request?No
RHS version
Arma 3 version1.62
Did you used any other mod when the error occurred?Yes
Which mods?CBA
Summary0002654: Feedback on US weapons
DescriptionA variety of feedback from various weapons:

1. M16/M4 recoil too high. The AK-74 appears to have about half of the recoil of an M16/M4. The recoil impulse of an M16/M4 is nearly directly back, the true recoil of these weapons even at full auto is near zero. There is no significant muzzle climb. This has to do with the physics of the alignment of the barrel to the stock. Anyone who has fired a full-auto M4/M16 (myself for one) could verify that this is the case.
Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztfXxgXqHGM [^] (Note that this skinny girl has basically no muzzle climb. The muzzle just jumps around randomly because her stance and hold is unstable.)

2. M16/M4 muzzle flash too bright. In real life the flash in the day is basically non-existent.
Daytime example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztfXxgXqHGM [^] (Also
Nighttime example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCsnSr6lqKM [^] (The A2 flash hider is extremely effective as you'll see.)

3. M4 does too little damage compared to counterparts. The M4/AK-74 fire similar cartridges with similar energies and similar penetration capabilities vs. modern body armor. But the best round out of an M4 takes 5 rounds to kill at 10-200m, while the best AK-74 round only takes 3 rounds. This disparity is far too great when the 5.56mm round actually has higher velocity and more energy at the muzzle. Depending on range, it could be argued that the 5.56mm is a better round. At the minimum these rounds should be similar.
AK-74 7N6 round vs. level III armor plate at point blank (these are worse than the level IV plates currently issued to the US military): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heVpWEAn2uQ [^]
5.56mm vs. same armor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3TsZbX5BwI [^]


3. M249 muzzle flash too bright.
Daytime see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCoFvH8zQYI [^]
Daytime example 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za0tAfzEXs4 [^]
Best nightime example I could find: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKih5gwiMVo [^]

4. M9 Beretta lights up the ground like a flare when fired.
No night videos I can find, but here it is in the daytime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXJ-ZbVJUsQ [^]

5. Shotguns are too lethal against armored targets and at range. In reality a slug/pellets will not penetrate body armor. A shotgun simply cannot do anything to an armored target no matter the size/range. A shotgun could only injure the target where it is unarmored.
Here is an example of a 12 ga shotgun versus level III body armor (this is worse armor than the level IV worn by all modern militaries today): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuJFcs3r6Zc [^]

6. Shotgun imparts too much energy to its target. When hit/killed by the shotgun the body goes flying multiple feet. This is a movie myth. Due to Newton's 3rd law all guns can only impart the same impulse to their target as the recoil the shooter experiences. In the case of a 12 ga, this would be a equivalent to a medium/hard punch. See video above for reaction to the impact.
Steps To ReproduceTested guns against multiple types of body armor (both vanilla and RHS, US and Russian, heavy and medium armors) at 10m and 200m. Tested all ammunition types for each firearm.
Additional Information
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Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2016-09-10 19:30CrowNew Issue
2016-09-10 19:31reyhardSeveritymajor => minor
2016-09-19 03:18omLNote Added: 0005333
2016-09-19 03:30omLNote Edited: 0005333bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=5333#r3472
2016-09-19 16:27reyhardNote Added: 0005334
2016-09-19 19:25omLNote Added: 0005335
2016-09-19 20:14reyhardNote Added: 0005336
2016-09-19 20:48omLNote Added: 0005337
2016-09-20 10:49CrowNote Added: 0005338
2016-09-20 11:46reyhardNote Added: 0005339
2016-10-10 12:05reyhardNote Added: 0005403
2016-10-10 12:05reyhardStatusnew => resolved
2016-10-10 12:05reyhardFixed in Version => 0.4.2
2016-10-10 12:05reyhardResolutionopen => fixed
2016-10-10 12:05reyhardAssigned To => reyhard
2016-10-11 01:43omLNote Added: 0005405

Notes
(0005333)
omL   
2016-09-19 03:18   
(edited on: 2016-09-19 03:30)
http://feedback.rhsmods.org/view.php?id=2443 [^] made a similar report about the m249 a while ago, no responses but didn't contain any media so that's probably why.

The muzzle flash affects the US weapons a lot more than the RU weapons as they typically have a higher rate of fire in all categories. It's very noticeable on the M249 for this reason. Renders it slightly ineffective in my experience for PvP gameplay (TacBF), you lose track of targets very easily. http://plays.tv/video/5799c6ba38d8c57289/comparison-rhs-m249-pip-bi-lim-85-m249-spw-muzzle-flash?from=user [^]

Image of the muzzle flash from an AR-15 with a standard A2 birdcage flash hider in complete darkness : http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/FH-A2.jpg [^] from this article http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/06/jeremy-s/ar-15-flash-hider-shootout/ [^]

The shotgun is extremely over-powered. 00' buckshot doesn't even penetrate helmets in reality but in game you can kill from 150m, no problem.

Also some footage of M4A1s in full auto : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gm_VfMUAEw, [^] https://youtu.be/1xjs1Q_ppkQ?t=4m27s [^]
(0005334)
reyhard   
2016-09-19 16:27   
1 & 3 are not true
5 & 6 is kind of arma limitation - vest use hitpoints & there is no way to make shotguns deadly towards unarmed targets while retaining low penetration of vests. caliber parameter is used only against objects. also, there is whole big subject about how arma handle non fatal injuries which I don't want to describe here.
(0005335)
omL   
2016-09-19 19:25   
@reyhard

3.) video of M249 in slow motion captured @600fps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAr5fxbwplE [^]
(0005336)
reyhard   
2016-09-19 20:14   
I was speaking about first number 3 ;)
(0005337)
omL   
2016-09-19 20:48   
@reyhard I'd argue that the M16 muzzle flash is still a bit too much. If you're talking about the M4A1 carbine or a CQB-R(Mk18) then I could possibly agree but that would still be dependent on the rounds being fired. Often you'll find MK18s with some sort of aftermarket muzzle device, though.
(0005338)
Crow   
2016-09-20 10:49   
>1 & 3 are not true

Evidence? What are you basing this on? Movies? Myself and other members of my group have fired all of these weapons in real life and agree they are wrong. The physics and scientific analysis demonstrates the same. And I've shown you youtube videos to demonstrate the reality. In what way are they not true?
(0005339)
reyhard   
2016-09-20 11:46   
values from cfg. you have to understand it's a game and it has limitations. i.e. whole body armor system is based on hitpoints and it's extremely hard to make it balanced between hits on armor & non protected areas since increasing hit value (so less shots are required to destroy vest) may result in one shot kills on limbs.

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arma_3_Soldier_Protection [^] here you can read a little bit about it

beside that, I tested both m4 & ak74 and couldn't reproduce that discrepancy in number of bullets to kill someone so i'm a little bit convinced you are slightly biased here

as for muzzle flashes, it's planned at some point to replace them with some custom ones (right now those are bis effects). till then, it's going to be kept as it is
(0005403)
reyhard   
2016-10-10 12:05   
tweaked 3'' & 4
(0005405)
omL   
2016-10-11 01:43   
for next patch ? :)