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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0004473USAF[All Projects] Generalpublic2018-08-22 17:122018-08-26 17:53
Reporterricnunes 
Assigned Toreyhard 
PrioritynoneSeverityminorReproducibilitysometimes
StatusresolvedResolutionfixed 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version0.4.8 
Summary0004473: Hellfire missile low accuracy/effectiveness when fired on direct flight path modes
DescriptionFrom my testings it seems that the Hellfire (both variants) when fired on a profile which dictates the missile to fly on a direct flight path towards the target that the missile has an odd spiraling flight behavior, very similar to the Russian Vikhr missile (in real life) or usually associated to Laser beam riding guided missiles. Since the Hellfire is an Active Laser guided missile it should have a more straight flight behavior.

Also from my testings I believe that such spiraling behavior when the missile is flying on a direct path - which in the case of the Laser Hellfire happens in LOBL mode - makes the missile much less accurate and/or the chances of hitting a non-vital part of a vehicle (specially if it's heavily armored like a MBT) is much higher which could also and sometimes gives the idea that the missile is "missing the target".

This seems to concur with further tests that I did in which modes like LOAL-LO and LOAL-HI seems to be much more precise (and effective) since in these modes the missile doesn't seem to exhibit the "spiraling" flight behavior.

Moreover, the difference in precision that I reported on the forums between the AGM-114L (Radar guided) and the AGM-114K (Laser Guided) seems to be "in-line" with what I mentioned on previous paragraphs since by default the AI gunner launches both hellfire variants on LOBL mode but while the LOBL mode on the AGM-114K (laser) makes the missile fly towards the target in that "spiraling" straight flight path, the LOBL mode on the AGM-114K (Radar) makes the missile fly on a "ballistic" flight path similar to what happens on LOAL-LO and LOAL-HI modes.

Anyway, my point is that the Hellfire should never fly in a "spiraling" flight path since:
1- It seems to degrade its accuracy and/or (damage) effectiveness.
2- It shouldn't be realistic since afterall the Hellfire is an Active Laser guided missile.
Steps To Reproduce1- Open the Editor and place an Apache with the player begin the pilot and the gunner an AI.
2- Place a few MBTs on the map. I advise MBTs because they are the most heavily armored vehicles and thus aren't likely to be destroyed by a near miss which by its turn I believe makes much easier to observe what is mentioned on the Description field.
3- Fly the mission and engage the MBTs:
3.1- Select the AGM-114K (laser) as the AI gunner weapon, lock the target and order the AI to fire the AGM-114K. Note: You can use the "CTRL+Second Mouse Button" to bring up the "TADS" camera view in order to better observe the missile "spiraling" flight behavior.
3.2- Then, try using manual fire, select the AGM-114K (laser) LOBL mode, lock a target and fire. Note: You also use the "TADS" camera in order to observe the missile flight behavior just like in 3.1

4- The try the same as in 3.1 and 3.2 with the AGM-114L (radar) and you can observe a different flight profile and a much better accuracy/effectiveness by the AGM-114L (radar).
5- Actually the AGM-114L (radar) exhibits the same "spiraling" flight behavior when fired on LOAL-DIR mode.
TagsNo tags attached.
Is it a wish/request?No
RHS version
Arma 3 version1.84
Did you used any other mod when the error occurred?No
Which mods?
Attached Filesjpg file icon Hellfire_miss.jpg [^] (133,421 bytes) 2018-08-22 22:34


zip file icon Ric_RHS_Apache_Test.Malden.zip [^] (3,461 bytes) 2018-08-23 14:06

- Relationships

-  Notes
(0008323)
reyhard (administrator)
2018-08-22 17:52

Are you sure that near miss are not caused by laser not being on target? Spiral movement is sort of fix for low accuracy of missile. Could you also record some video with those missed shots?
(0008326)
ricnunes (reporter)
2018-08-22 20:50

I could be wrong but I don't think that the laser not being on target is the problem (but then again I could be wrong).
I'm saying this because when I use the "pilot's TADS camera" (CTRL+second mouse button) I can see a small crosshair "perfectly" aimed at the target - I imagine that this small crosshair is where the laser is aiming at on the "pilot's TADS camera", right?

Is there any good and easy to setup recording software that you could advise?
(0008327)
reyhard (administrator)
2018-08-22 21:18

OBS Software is quite good but easiest to set is I think NVIDIA shadowplay if you their card.

As for lock - you can see where laser target is by switching to TI mode.
(0008329)
ricnunes (reporter)
2018-08-22 22:34
edited on: 2018-08-22 22:37

My video card is AMD, so I guess that NVIDIA shadowplay is out of the question.

But and in the meanwhile I've done further tests and together with your great hint of using the TI in order to check where the laser is actually aimed at, I'm even more convinced that the spiraling flight path of the missile may be the culprit here.
I managed to take a screenshot (not a video but I believe that the issue can be perfectly seen) where it shows exactly what I've been reporting and which I just attached to this ticket/issue.
By looking at the screenshot you can clearly see that the laser is perfectly aiming at the enemy tank (at the lower part of the turret very close to the chassis) but the missile (due to the spiraling flight path) hit the ground just behind the tank (and obviously not destroying it and neither damaging it, considerably at least) - this can also be clearly (I believe) seen in the screenshot as well.

I hope this helps.

(0008331)
reyhard (administrator)
2018-08-23 10:27

As i've mentioned before, I had to set trackOversteer to over 10 to get more or less satisfactory accuracy. Setting that parameter so high added that spiral movement though. Can you record video? I tried similar scenario and tank was hit in 90% cases hit.

I'm wondering if it's also related to place or fps - if you have troubles with recording video perhaps you could attach mission where you can replicate frequent misses?
(0008334)
ricnunes (reporter)
2018-08-23 14:07

Sure. I just installed OBS software (BTW, thanks for the tip it seems to be a very good recording software indeed) and I just recorded a video where I believe it shows what I'm reporting (this at my very first try, BTW). However the video has a memory size of 127MB (even after compressing it with RAR) and the ticket only seems to allow attaching files with a max size of 2MB.
Is there any other way where I can send you the video that I just recorded?

In the meanwhile I just attached the mission where I recorded the issue and which I've been using for my testings - It's a simple mission on Malden 2035 where the player's Apache starts on the Airport and there's 4 enemy vehicles (2 MBTs and 2 Cars) just East-Northeast of the aircraft, near Lolisse.
(0008347)
ricnunes (reporter)
2018-08-24 17:06
edited on: 2018-08-24 17:10

Ok, I found a way to host the video that I recorded and mentioned earlier on. It's hosted on Google Drive and here's the link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L3GEOeZIUjTe_QVrrhGVddn_slhRN5We [^]

On the video you can (I believe) clearly see what I've been describing in this ticket on my first missile (AGM-114K) launch where the laser is perfectly aimed at the tank but due to the missile's spiraling flight path it hits the ground just in front of the tank. Note that on the screenshot that I posted here previously that the missile hit the ground just behind the tank which IMO seems to be an indication that the missile's spiraling flight path could be the culprit.

Later on the video I shoot the 3 (three) remaining AGM-114K (laser) missiles which either miss the tank or hit the tank on non-vital areas. At least the third of these 3 missiles seem to hit the tank but again without doing considerable damage since one of the crewmen gets out of the tank only to return/get in to the tank.
Finally I finished off the tank with a AGM-114L (Radar) missile.

This video was recorded on the mission that I attached to this ticket.

(0008371)
reyhard (administrator)
2018-08-26 10:17

tweaked it a little bit - tested in on your mission and I hope there will be no regression in other cases
(0008377)
ricnunes (reporter)
2018-08-26 16:30

Thanks reyhard.
Anyway and like I previously said this issue seems to affect only or mostly when the Hellfire missile is flying on a direct flight path.
Wouldn't it be possible to tweak only the profiles which orders the missile to fly directly/straight towards the target (LOBL and LOAL-DIR for the the AGM-114K and LOAD-DIR for the AGM-114L) and leave the other profiles as they currently are?
(0008378)
reyhard (administrator)
2018-08-26 17:24

nope, missile physics is defined in ammo, not in fire mode
(0008380)
ricnunes (reporter)
2018-08-26 17:53

Ok, roger that.

- Issue History
Date Modified Username Field Change
2018-08-22 17:12 ricnunes New Issue
2018-08-22 17:16 ricnunes Description Updated View Revisions
2018-08-22 17:52 reyhard Note Added: 0008323
2018-08-22 17:52 reyhard Assigned To => reyhard
2018-08-22 17:52 reyhard Status new => feedback
2018-08-22 20:50 ricnunes Note Added: 0008326
2018-08-22 20:50 ricnunes Status feedback => new
2018-08-22 21:18 reyhard Note Added: 0008327
2018-08-22 21:18 reyhard Status new => feedback
2018-08-22 22:34 ricnunes File Added: Hellfire_miss.jpg
2018-08-22 22:34 ricnunes Note Added: 0008329
2018-08-22 22:34 ricnunes Status feedback => new
2018-08-22 22:37 ricnunes Note Edited: 0008329 View Revisions
2018-08-22 22:37 ricnunes Note Edited: 0008329 View Revisions
2018-08-23 10:27 reyhard Note Added: 0008331
2018-08-23 10:27 reyhard Status new => feedback
2018-08-23 14:06 ricnunes File Added: Ric_RHS_Apache_Test.Malden.zip
2018-08-23 14:07 ricnunes Note Added: 0008334
2018-08-23 14:07 ricnunes Status feedback => new
2018-08-24 17:06 ricnunes Note Added: 0008347
2018-08-24 17:07 ricnunes Note Edited: 0008347 View Revisions
2018-08-24 17:08 ricnunes Note Edited: 0008347 View Revisions
2018-08-24 17:10 ricnunes Note Edited: 0008347 View Revisions
2018-08-26 10:17 reyhard Note Added: 0008371
2018-08-26 10:17 reyhard Status new => resolved
2018-08-26 10:17 reyhard Fixed in Version => 0.4.8
2018-08-26 10:17 reyhard Resolution open => fixed
2018-08-26 16:30 ricnunes Note Added: 0008377
2018-08-26 17:24 reyhard Note Added: 0008378
2018-08-26 17:53 ricnunes Note Added: 0008380


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