RHS Feedback - AFRF
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IDProjectCategoryView StatusDate SubmittedLast Update
0000549AFRF[All Projects] Generalpublic2015-04-22 22:532015-05-06 22:46
ReporterGriggs 
Assigned ToMistyRonin 
PrioritynormalSeverityminorReproducibilityrandom
StatusclosedResolutionno change required 
PlatformOSOS Version
Product Version 
Target VersionFixed in Version 
Is it a wish/request?No
RHS version
Arma 3 version1.40
Did you used any other mod when the error occurred?No
Which mods?
Summary0000549: Some problems with helicopters
Description1. All US helicopters got only AGM-114L rocket which is fire-and-forget and very imbalanced (press "T" to win), in A2:OA AH-64D had only 2 AGM-114L and other 6 were AGM-114K (semi-active, laser guidance), maybe if you will add AGM-114K russian armor won't be so helpless.

2. What about old AT-6 Spiral (9M114M "Kokon") at Mi-24's? It can be replaced with AT-9 Spiral-2 (9M120 "Ataka") which have better armor penetration, range and speed.

3. Have AH-1Z got radar in real life?

4. Also if helicopter (all transport ones, and Mi-24) haven't got radar, it's very hard to find out azimuth without GPS.

5. Mi-24's gunner seat is antsy - when pilot do some maneuvers, gunners first person camera is rides across the cabin (could be AGM compatibltiy bug, I'm not sure).

----------------

1. Все американские вертолеты несут только самонаводящиеся AGM-114L, которые имбалансны, в А2:ОА на AH-64D висело всего 2 AGM-114L, остальные 6 были полуактивными AGM-114K, с наводкой по лазеру, возможно если вы добавите AGM-114K русская бронетехника будет менее уязвимой.

2. Очень печалят старые 9М114М "Кокон" на Ми-24, которые могут быть заменены на более совершенные 9М120 "Атака".

3. Имеет ли AH-1Z радар в реальности (на сколько я помню - нет) .

4. Если на вертолете (транспортные, Ми-24) нет радара, то очень тяжело узнать азимут без GPS (который, ко всему прочему, показывает только направление машины, а не взгляда игрока как радар).

5. Место стрелка на Ми-24 какое то дерганное - если пилот выполняет маневры то камеру шатает по всей кабине (возможно это баг несовместимости с AGM, не было шанса проверить).
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Issue History
Date ModifiedUsernameFieldChange
2015-04-22 22:53GriggsNew Issue
2015-04-23 02:42MistyRoninNote Added: 0001232
2015-04-23 10:08GriggsNote Added: 0001238
2015-04-23 14:46DamianNote Added: 0001240
2015-04-23 14:49GriggsNote Edited: 0001238bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1238#r558
2015-04-23 15:05GriggsNote Added: 0001241
2015-04-23 15:06GriggsNote Edited: 0001241bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1241#r560
2015-04-23 15:10GriggsNote Edited: 0001241bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1241#r561
2015-04-23 15:29MistyRoninNote Added: 0001242
2015-04-23 15:30MistyRoninNote Edited: 0001242bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1242#r563
2015-04-23 15:31MistyRoninNote Edited: 0001242bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1242#r564
2015-04-23 15:36GriggsNote Added: 0001243
2015-04-23 16:08DamianNote Added: 0001245
2015-04-23 16:13FloydiiNote Added: 0001246
2015-04-23 16:29GriggsNote Added: 0001247
2015-04-23 16:42GriggsNote Edited: 0001247bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1247#r568
2015-04-23 17:07GriggsNote Edited: 0001247bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1247#r569
2015-04-23 18:53DamianNote Added: 0001248
2015-04-23 18:55DamianNote Edited: 0001248bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1248#r571
2015-04-23 19:01DamianNote Edited: 0001248bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1248#r572
2015-04-23 21:51MistyRoninNote Added: 0001249
2015-04-23 21:52MistyRoninNote Edited: 0001249bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=1249#r574
2015-05-06 19:25GriggsNote Added: 0001347
2015-05-06 22:45MistyRoninStatusnew => closed
2015-05-06 22:46MistyRoninAssigned To => MistyRonin
2015-05-06 22:46MistyRoninResolutionopen => no change required

Notes
(0001232)
MistyRonin   
2015-04-23 02:42   
1. We are all about realism not balance.

2. No. Maybe. Probably.

3. Yes.

4. A magnetic compass should be in the cockpit.

5. Not sure what you mean, would you mind extending it please.
(0001238)
Griggs   
2015-04-23 10:08   
(edited on: 2015-04-23 14:49)
1. Ok but you sure that Army or Marines now use only AGM-114L?

2. It's little bit strange that BLUEFOR main atack choppers use only last modifications of their AT air-to-surface missiles, and OPFOR ones use old, Soviet era missiles. (Ka-52 is not main attack chopper yet)

3. http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en_US/Military/BellAH-1Z/1291148375494.html#/?tab=features-tab [^] there is NO radar on AH-1Z and if it have no radar it can't launch AGM-114L as well... Here is modified AH-1Z with APG-78 http://eaglet.skr.jp/MILITARY/PICTURE/AH-1CRS.jpg [^] , but I have no information about using it in action

5. I will record video, and add here link later.

Also gunner can take controls in Mi-24 and Ka-52 in real life
(0001240)
Damian   
2015-04-23 14:46   
1. US Army currently uses only AH-64D and AH-64E (in the end they will use only AH-64E - new builds and modernized AH-64D) and as these ones uses Longbow radar, they mostly will use AGM-114L. USMC is a bit different story, they will mostly use AGM-114K as AH-1Z do not have Longbow radar.

2. How dyou you know 9M120 have really better performance? Especially armor penetration wise? Knowing how ATGM and RPG manufacturers cheat during tests using soft steel instead of armor steel, I have my doubts about capabilities advertised by it's manufacturer.

3. No AH-1Z do not have radar, however such radar is/was tested and might be there in future. We need to change it's missile loadout.

5. Do not use AGM, it's latest version is not working well with RHS and ArmA3 1.42.

---------------------------------------------------------------

1. US Army and USMC uses also older variants, of AGM-114, we will change this, give us time, we can't do everything. USMC will not use AGM-114L tough.

2. Because USA is rich and can afford modernization of their armed forces by purchasing huge numbers of new equipment even with budget cuts, Russia is poor and can't afford such actions even with budget increasing. This is difference of scale in real world, deal with it.
(0001241)
Griggs   
2015-04-23 15:05   
(edited on: 2015-04-23 15:10)
2. Maybe test cheating got place to be but I'm sure that people could improve characteristics of ATGMs from 1976 to 1996. We got some armor penetration values and speed values for missiles in mod right now, how do you know that they are not wrong? How do you even know that Hellfire got bigger armor penetration than Kokon?
(0001242)
MistyRonin   
2015-04-23 15:29   
(edited on: 2015-04-23 15:31)
Damian and Griggs. I'm afraid you are wrong, the AH-1Z can mount a customized version of the Longbow radar mounted on wingtip station. It has already been used in combat for the last years. Besides it uses other automatic weapon control systems.

http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/ah1z_viper.htm [^]

Russian Armed Forces nowadays are using quite dated armament compared to US Armed Forces. Tho well, the US also uses some WW2 stuff like the M1911 or the M2...

"Also gunner can take controls in Mi-24 and Ka-52 in real life" that will be added for sure.
(0001243)
Griggs   
2015-04-23 15:36   
MistyRonin it can be mount, but it is not vizualized - AH-1Z still have 2 Sidewinders in armament, and you can add AH-1Z without APG-78 for USMC'2010 and with semi-active laser guidance
(0001245)
Damian   
2015-04-23 16:08   
"2. Maybe test cheating got place to be but I'm sure that people could improve characteristics of ATGMs from 1976 to 1996. We got some armor penetration values and speed values for missiles in mod right now, how do you know that they are not wrong? How do you even know that Hellfire got bigger armor penetration than Kokon?"

Such things can be calculated for example by comparing diameter of warhead. Because shaped charge penetration depends mostly on warheads diameter.

Let's compare.

AGM-114 diameter is 178mm which means that warhead itself is probably around 170mm.

9M114 diameter is 130mm so warhead diameter is few mm below that.

9M120 diameter is also 130mm so situation is the same.

9K121 Vikhr is also 130mm and again same situation.

In general Hellfire have larger warhead than Shturm and Ataka. On the other hand it's also slower ATGM because of it's larger size and greater weight.

There is also question of materials from which shaped charge insert (from which shaped charge jet is created) is made, and explosive materials used. Russians mostly use good old copper inserts for shaped charges, their experiments with other materials in general were seen as unsuccessfull and never reached production.

US on the other hand uses different materials for inserts, for example FGM-148 Javelin shaped charge insert in the warhead is made from two layers of molybdenum, this is why it can achieve such high penetration values while being only 127mm in diameter (so warhead itself is probably around 120mm in diameter).

I know that for some people such facts are hard to be accepted, but fact and reality are just that.
(0001246)
Floydii   
2015-04-23 16:13   
I'm with Griggs on 0001243. Give us a 2010 Cobra with a realistic loadout and make the 2014 Cobra the pixy and fairy dust world of tomorrow variant.
(0001247)
Griggs   
2015-04-23 16:29   
(edited on: 2015-04-23 17:07)
Maybe you will also compare guidance system size and engine size?
Anyway talking that Ataka is same as Kokon is disrespect to people who worked on it for 20 years. It's same as I will tell you that AGM-114A have same armor penetration as AGM-114F...
About comparing Kokon and Hellfire - maaan that was sarcasm

about antsy seat of gunner in mi-24 - https://youtu.be/nLNm1eiIsdA [^]
(0001248)
Damian   
2015-04-23 18:53   
(edited on: 2015-04-23 19:01)
"I'm with Griggs on 0001243. Give us a 2010 Cobra with a realistic loadout and make the 2014 Cobra the pixy and fairy dust world of tomorrow variant."

We might think about it.

"Maybe you will also compare guidance system size and engine size?"

And why not. ;)

"Anyway talking that Ataka is same as Kokon is disrespect to people who worked on it for 20 years."

Why disrespect? There are technical limitations, and also limitations coming from requirements made by military. Besides this I didn't said Ataka have definately same penetration as Kokon, I said diameter is same, diameter limits penetration capabilities for shaped charge warheads, thus Hellfire having grater diameter will have allways grater penetration calabilities in this case, while Ataka might not be definately better than Kokon, and might even be the same in this aspect while having other advantages like newer guidance system, better engine etc.

Edit: Actually I checked penetration capabilities of Kokon and Ataka and they are very similiar, tough I suspect values provided for Ataka are manipulated with the "famous" behind ERA formula, analog situation to RPG-29, it was also said to penetrate 750mm RHA after ERA and in the end Basalt company, the manufacturer admitted it's only 600-650mm. ;))

"It's same as I will tell you that AGM-114A have same armor penetration as AGM-114F..."

As above.

"About comparing Kokon and Hellfire - maaan that was sarcasm"

No it wasn't. ;)
(0001249)
MistyRonin   
2015-04-23 21:51   
(edited on: 2015-04-23 21:52)
"I'm with Griggs on 0001243. Give us a 2010 Cobra with a realistic loadout and make the 2014 Cobra the pixy and fairy dust world of tomorrow variant."

There's no pixy/fairy dust of world of tomorrow in our mod. All are realistic.

We'll study new AH-1Z load-out possibilities tho.

Second on the requests our answer is: No. Maybe. Probably. ( http://rhsmods.org/faq [^] )

I'll ask you to please open a new task for each request.
(0001347)
Griggs   
2015-05-06 19:25   
"I'll ask you to please open a new task for each request."

Done, please close this report